Lessons learned from facing an “invincible” assailant

[JJVP]

Sgt. Timothy Gramins who fired 17 .45-cal. rounds into a unrelenting suspect before putting him down offers these lessons learned from his extraordinary fight for his life

http://www.policeone.com/columnists/cha ... assailant/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Excaliber]

Sgt. Timothy Gramins who fired 17 .45-cal. rounds into a unrelenting suspect before putting him down offers these lessons learned from his extraordinary fight for his life

http://www.policeone.com/columnists/cha ... assailant/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The .45 is a good round, but there are no magic handgun bullets. Determined adversaries can absorb incredible numbers of mortal wounds while continuing to present a deadly threat. Even though they'll die for sure, how quickly that happens has major implications for the outcome of the fight.

Incidents like this provide good opportunities to reflect on how many .32 or .380 rounds it would likely take to solve a problem like Sgt. Gramins faced, how long it would take to deliver them, how many reloads are typically carried, and what the likely condition of the guy in the white hat would be when the smoke cleared.

Here are the details of the incident referenced above.

[Excaliber]

You are missing the point.

It would only take one shot with a lesser caliber, but it has to be in the right place.

I guess I did, because that's the last thing I would have taken away from the details of the cited incident.

Then again, there's always the possibility that I might not have missed anything and you might do well to reevaluate and consider that there might be more useful information that could be gleaned from it.

In 21 years of law enforcement I never saw a shot like that made during a firefight. I sure wouldn't want to bet my life on being the sole exception when it really counted.

Look around next time you go to the range. Most people couldn't make a shot into the required two inch band on the head with any consistency on a stationary paper target that isn't shooting back at 15 feet on the range, let alone during combat.

The majority of pistol targets at commercial ranges look like they were fired at with shotguns at 50 yards.

If the folks who produced those targets are counting on being able to put a .380 round through the eye of a fast charging assailant while they're dodging his bullets, they had better be the kind of guys and gals whose performance suddenly becomes stellar under pressure.

Anyone who follows the link to the details of the firefight that firearms instructor, sniper, and SWAT officer Sgt. Gramin fought through and thinks he could have ended it with a single head shot from a mousegun either leads a rich fantasy life or is a far better man than I.

[C-dub]

I thought this looked familiar.

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=65375&hilit=carry+more+ammo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jumping Frog]

You are missing the point.

It would only take one shot with a lesser caliber, but it has to be in the right place.

Nah, I think you are missing the point.

You can be hit with a lethal shot that will definitely kill you in any caliber, bit that doesn't mean someone instantaneously drops dead right there (DRT). Even with a heart shot, it is still feasible that an adversary will continue to fight for some period of time. The classic example is Michael Platt of the FBI Miami shootout continued to wound and kill FBI agents after taking lethal hits. He just didn't die quickly enough.

Sure, there is a small portion of the brain and spine that can produce DRT. But no-one can prepare for a gunfight assuming they can successfully make a central nervous system DRT stop. Thus plenty of ammo makes a lot of sense to me.

BTW, did you notice the cop switched from .45 to 9mm?

[jimlongley]

The last line is why every one of us should give that article to anyone who tells us we CHLs don't need so many rounds.

[baldeagle]

The last line is why every one of us should give that article to anyone who tells us we CHLs don't need so many rounds.

Yes! Isn't it interesting that Sgt. Gramins now carries TWO 30 round mags all the time? Obviously he thinks having to change magazines is a detriment to the fight as well. And he chose 9mm because he can carry more rounds in larger magazines.

This is a guy who has BTDT. His choices are based on experience, not guesswork and not emotion. Having only four rounds left when a guy is still coming at you would be a serious pucker moment for anyone.

[texanjoker]

Wasn't really looking for an argument, just trying to emphsize a point that the LEO in the story also made. That is, that accurate shooting is paramount.

LEOs get involved in situations that I will never be involved in. But their duty is to contain a situation, whereas mine is to escape unscathed. Also, I can avoid areas and people that seem supicious to me, and they cannot. But I also carry as much extra ammunition as I can get by with.

Very well stated

[lrpettit]

Having only four rounds left when a guy is still coming at you would be a serious pucker moment for anyone.

You're starting to make me wonder about my XDS!!

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Having only four rounds left when a guy is still coming at you would be a serious pucker moment for anyone.

You're starting to make me wonder about my XDS!!

If anything ever requires me to draw, my XDS comes out first, since it's a .45. If 6 or 8 rounds of .45
isn't enough to finish the incident, Mr. Ruger will start talking.

Consider carrying a BUG (Backup Gun). 2 guns onbody are more comforting than one. :-)

SIA