police return fire, kill suspect (that was in custody)

[The Annoyed Man]

There is clearly window glass blown outward on the ground next to the vehicle, so I have no reason not to believe the officers when they say that he fired inside the car.

I pointed that out to my wife lastnight too. It seems to be in line with what the police were saying. The "witnesses" claiming they shot him in the back maybe didn't hear a light caliber gun shooting out the window. All they saw was the suspect running away and getting shot in the back.

The mother and son witnesses I saw interviewed said they honestly could not tell if he had his hands behind him or in front of him as he ran toward them. When the shooting started, they dove out of the way. When it stopped, they looked again and saw the officers performing CPR on the BG. One of the witnesses (I don't know if it was either of the two mentioned above) took pictures of the cops doing the CPR. So it's not like they tried to gun him down in cold blood. They actually did try to save his life after they shot him—unsuccessfully unfortunately for the BG.

Again, I think that the main thing they are facing is discipline over having put an armed suspect into the squad car without having adequately searched him. And I could be wrong about this, but I think it is possible that this was because Highland Park police are perhaps not as frequently exposed to truly dangerous people as perhaps LEOs from other jurisdictions might be, so they just didn't have the established habits of dealing with people like they might be potentially dangerous. You cuff the average Highland Park resident in the back of your squad car, and I would imagine that he's likely going to be more worried about what's going to happen to his standing in the community than he is going to be worried about their finding guns or stolen vehicles to be involved.

It just goes to show that even in a relatively low crime area, LEOs cannot take their own personal safety or the safety of the citizens they protect for granted.

[texanjoker]

Fox 4 News @ 5pm just aired a follow-up story where two witnesses to the shooting stated that the (accused) man crawled out of the rear window, stumbled away from the cop car, and the officers shot the man in the back...It will be interesting to see the results of the Sheriff's investigation.

I love when the "witness" comes out after the fact in each LEO. If this suspect was armed and shot at them, you can shoot him from the front, side, back, ect to stop the threat and it will be a good shoot. The supreme court has also ruled you can shoot a dangerous fleeing felon. If this guy was armed, shot at them and running away I would consider him a dangerous fleeing felon.

[v-rog]

Fox 4 News @ 5pm just aired a follow-up story where two witnesses to the shooting stated that the (accused) man crawled out of the rear window, stumbled away from the cop car, and the officers shot the man in the back...It will be interesting to see the results of the Sheriff's investigation.

I love when the "witness" comes out after the fact in each LEO. If this suspect was armed and shot at them, you can shoot him from the front, side, back, ect to stop the threat and it will be a good shoot. The supreme court has also ruled you can shoot a dangerous fleeing felon. If this guy was armed, shot at them and running away I would consider him a dangerous fleeing felon.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see the results of the Sheriff's investigation. BTW, I have no dog in this fight. I just want the facts, untainted and all.

And for clarification, the very definition of the term, "witness," indicates that the person(s) witnessed an event. They have to come out after the fact; they can't come out before the event

[texanjoker]

Fox 4 News @ 5pm just aired a follow-up story where two witnesses to the shooting stated that the (accused) man crawled out of the rear window, stumbled away from the cop car, and the officers shot the man in the back...It will be interesting to see the results of the Sheriff's investigation.

I love when the "witness" comes out after the fact in each LEO. If this suspect was armed and shot at them, you can shoot him from the front, side, back, ect to stop the threat and it will be a good shoot. The supreme court has also ruled you can shoot a dangerous fleeing felon. If this guy was armed, shot at them and running away I would consider him a dangerous fleeing felon.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see the results of the Sheriff's investigation. BTW, I have no dog in this fight. I just want the facts, untainted and all.

And for clarification, the very definition of the term, "witness," indicates that the person(s) witnessed an event. They have to come out after the fact; they can't come out before the event

Yup, and in OIS there are always tons of them that didn't see anything but sure witnessed it for the news media

[Ark03]

Just learned that a friend's brother was best friends with the BG (David Hartman). Small world.

They guy has been in prison for selling drugs, and was likely still into drugs, so he probably wasn't up to any good down there in Highland Park. I'm sorry it turned out this way, but without knowing more can't fault the officers' decisions. Just wish they had done their job and found the gun.

[texanjoker]

Just learned that a friend's brother was best friends with the BG (David Hartman). Small world.

They guy has been in prison for selling drugs, and was likely still into drugs, so he probably wasn't up to any good down there in Highland Park. I'm sorry it turned out this way, but without knowing more can't fault the officers' decisions. Just wish they had done their job and found the gun.

I wish the bad guy had not tried to shoot the police. Regardless if they missed a weapon, which can happen, the BG shot at them and they shot back and won the fight. RE another post this is not a discipline issue, but a training issue.

[Ark03]

the BG shot at them and they shot back and won the fight. RE another post this is not a discipline issue, but a training issue.

Or he shot the window out and ran away, and then was shot in the back. Depends on which witness story you listen to. I'm certainly not trying to defend him, but the one story told by the cops is certainly not the whole story. However, if I was in their shoes I would have likely done the same thing, and would hope my department would defend me for it.

I don't know his heart or where his mind were, but his actions put him on a one way path.

Edit to add RE the "stolen" motorcycle: according to his family, the motorcycle had been his for years and wasn't stolen. In fairness, this is all hearsay - I certainly don't run with these guys and haven't met any of them.

it's because they placed an armed felon (the motorcycle was stolen) in their squad car

Regardless of the origins of the motorcycle, he wasn't a felon because of that motorcycle - he was a felon because of his drug problem (and he was likely selling). Did time and got out in 2008 or so. Cleaned up a couple of times since then, but had probably gotten back into drugs.

[texanjoker]

the BG shot at them and they shot back and won the fight. RE another post this is not a discipline issue, but a training issue.

Or he shot the window out and ran away, and then was shot in the back. Depends on which witness story you listen to. I'm certainly not trying to defend him, but the one story told by the cops is certainly not the whole story. However, if I was in their shoes I would have likely done the same thing, and would hope my department would defend me for it.

I don't know his heart or where his mind were, but his actions put him on a one way path.

Edit to add RE the "stolen" motorcycle: according to his family, the motorcycle had been his for years and wasn't stolen. In fairness, this is all hearsay - I certainly don't run with these guys and haven't met any of them.

it's because they placed an armed felon (the motorcycle was stolen) in their squad car

Regardless of the origins of the motorcycle, he wasn't a felon because of that motorcycle - he was a felon because of his drug problem (and he was likely selling). Did time and got out in 2008 or so. Cleaned up a couple of times since then, but had probably gotten back into drugs.

Regardless of whether they missed a gun or not, Nobody forced him to fire the gun or try to escape. That is all on him. He could have dumped the gun on the floorboard of the car and been done with it. That is why you always search your patrol car before and after you place a crook in there so you can charge them with whatever you may find.

In your scenario

Or he shot the window out and ran away, and then was shot in the back.

officers would hear the gun fire and then see a fleeing armed felony suspect. That also would fall within the law and policy of most departments as well because a person that just fired a gun, escaped from custody, and was running with said gun would be a risk to the public and officers that would be trying to apprehend him.

You can be sure the officers will get some re-fresher training on searches.

[knotquiteawake]

In your scenario

Or he shot the window out and ran away, and then was shot in the back.

officers would hear the gun fire and then see a fleeing armed felony suspect. That also would fall within the law and policy of most departments as well because a person that just fired a gun, escaped from custody, and was running with said gun would be a risk to the public and officers that would be trying to apprehend him.

You can be sure the officers will get some re-fresher training on searches.

Exactly. I think that is what most of the public won't understand about this. They will think "he wasn't a threat" at that point in time.

[Ark03]

Regardless of whether they missed a gun or not, Nobody forced him to fire the gun or try to escape

I wasn't arguing this point; just looking at it from another angle.

[The Annoyed Man]

Edit to add RE the "stolen" motorcycle: according to his family, the motorcycle had been his for years and wasn't stolen. In fairness, this is all hearsay - I certainly don't run with these guys and haven't met any of them

I'm not sure, but I might have been the first on this thread to say that it was a stolen motorcycle. As with most other "facts" about this story being repeated in this thread, I was repeating what I heard/saw on TV. If the reporter had it wrong, then I apologize for passing bad information.