TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

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VMI77
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by VMI77 »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
Cedar Park Dad wrote:
Checking the wheelchair in this case is nonsense, and based on a ridiculous assumption: that an American family traveling with a handicapped child is going to blow themselves up. Pure hooey.
Prior to Boston I would have said no American would do that.

If you exclude it the terrorists will use that next. However you can make a very easy, quick, and polite search.
What does Boston have to do with an American family blowing themselves up with their children? How are terrorists going to get an American family to blow themselves and their children up? And how on earth is the kind of check they do going to result in anything but the supposed "terrorists" detonating themselves on the spot? I'm afraid your logic just doesn't work, since the "next" thing is walking into an airport with a suitcase bomb. What you going to do about that? Ban people from carrying luggage on a trip? The fact is, the probability of the wheelchair and grandma threat is so remote that TSA takes NO PRECAUTIONS when making these checks --it's not security, it's security theater.

One of the Boston bombers was an "American Family" member.
I believe the Fort Hood shooter was also a US citizen (I could be wrong there).
Wasn't Jose Padilla also a US citizen?
Women have been used as homicide bombers. Why not rig something that goes through a scanner, or firearms for a hostage situation.
If there is a weakness, if they have the power they will attempt to exploit it.

I understand the need to check, but the check itself is easily minimally invasive and consumes almost no time (same time as quick frisk as you're "frisking" the wheel chair as it were).
Are you deliberately trying to avoid understanding what I said? Both Boston bombers where from Chechnya. Both were Muslim. Both were known to DHS, which had been warned about them by the Russians. NOTHING WAS DONE. Still, neither put a bomb on a child or other family member with the intention of blowing themselves and their family up. Neither the Fort Hood shooter, who was a known radical Muslim (and again, NOTHING was done, and the administration is calling his attack a workplace shooting, not terrorism), or Padilla (who didn't carry out any terrorist acts btw) attempted to board a plane with their their families harboring a bomb on one of their children.

A woman is not a FAMILY. A Muslim woman in full garb could have a bomb strapped to her body and she wouldn't even be checked. What American female has been used as a suicide bomber? This supposed security is all theater and it's farcical theater at that.

The border with Mexico is wide open and the country is full of millions of illegals. We don't even look at foreign born Muslims when other countries warn us about them.
The authorities don't scrutinize those most likely to carry out an act of terrorism....even in their training the supposed terrorists are US citizens who want to restore the constitutional Republic.
DHS doesn't monitor mosques.
The method of checking for bombs is absurd, and would not be used if the threat was considered a real possibility. You hear of babies, the handicapped, and old ladies subjected to invasive searches. Have you heard of even one case of a Muslim woman in traditional garb being subjected to such a search?
There are many ways to attack airports besides a handicapped child in a wheelchair and NOTHING is being done about them.
There is NO WAY to completely prevent a terrorist attack, the only thing that can be done is to shift attacks from a harder to a softer target, as in Boston. So every bit of freedom you give up to the government will ultimately make you life worse and less free without providing a scintilla of security.

This government considers US to be the enemy. We're the targets of their snooping, searches, and training. "Terrorism" is a tool for imposing control on US to benefit TPTB.
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Cedar Park Dad
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

I understood you fine.
I'm sorry, help me out. How does the TSA personnel doing the checks know if someone is a Muslim or not? Is your religion stamped on your forehead when you enter the airport? I missed that line. Further, if they are Muslim, they get searched, if not they don't? You know that violates at least one, no make that two Amendments to the Constitution correct?

And yes I saw a woman in a burqa (not the full one, headdress and scarf) being searched before. I have been searched before as well.

Maybe someone else can correct me, but I don't think wheelchairs can go through the machines (due to size and metal content).
No one should be safe from checking.
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VMI77
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by VMI77 »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:I understood you fine.
I'm sorry, help me out. How does the TSA personnel doing the checks know if someone is a Muslim or not? Is your religion stamped on your forehead when you enter the airport? I missed that line. Further, if they are Muslim, they get searched, if not they don't? You know that violates at least one, no make that two Amendments to the Constitution correct?

And yes I saw a woman in a burqa (not the full one, headdress and scarf) being searched before. I have been searched before as well.

Maybe someone else can correct me, but I don't think wheelchairs can go through the machines (due to size and metal content).
No one should be safe from checking.
An effective screening is not a binary process, and it's not a random process: it's a focused and directed process. I was using Muslim as sort of a shorthand, but yes, in some cases it would be obvious. However, the number one threat is from young Middle Eastern males. Does being a young ME male get you searched every time?......no, but it is one factor among several others that results in an intelligent guess. For example, young ME male plus not a US citizen plus exhibits unusual behavior....etc. Grandmas and babies aren't conducting terrorist attacks. Searching them is a waste of time, unless your purpose is security theater.

Your response to my question was non-responsive. I didn't ask if a Muslim woman has been searched before, I asked if you've seen an account of one in full garb being subjected to the same level of scrutiny as the child in the post.
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

The Boston Bombers were not Middle Eastern males.
The underwear bomber was not a Middle Eastern male.
Padillo was not a Middle Eastern male.

Grandmas an babies aren't conducting terrorist attacks but their parents might be and using the baby as cover.
And yes I have. She was searched. this child was searched, just incredibly badly.

Plus you're assuming terrorist and nonterrorist threats are all coming from one vector. Thats not the case. What if its just a crazy person (ok that may be a bit of a repetition there)? We had security long before 9/11, it just wasn't worth anything. :grumble

In the US we don't discriminate based on religion or ethnicity. Its just not going to happen here nor should it.
Welcome to America, land of equality. Everyone gets searched. :patriot:
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by RottenApple »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:The Boston Bombers were not Middle Eastern males.
The underwear bomber was not a Middle Eastern male.
Padillo was not a Middle Eastern male.

Grandmas an babies aren't conducting terrorist attacks but their parents might be and using the baby as cover.
And yes I have. She was searched. this child was searched, just incredibly badly.
The fact is that these "security" measures don't actually provide any security at all. You don't need to profile based on race, religion (which, as you point out, cannot be "seen" at a glance), sex, etc. Profiling, however, *IS* the key to real security (at least of transportation nodes).

In Israel, it is virtually impossible to profile for race, religion, etc. TBH, it's because ethnically there is virtually no difference between Sephardic Jews and the Arabic Muslims around them. So Israel must rely on behavioral profiling. You are watched, via camera (monitored & unmonitored), trained observers, and lay-people from the moment you turn into the airport property. You go through a variety of checkpoints; Most with no noticeable delay in your travel plans. You'll be questioned at various, random times by security, customs, ticket agents, and airport workers. They are looking not so much at what you are saying, but HOW you are saying it. And their security is VERY effective.
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

RottenApple wrote:
Cedar Park Dad wrote:The Boston Bombers were not Middle Eastern males.
The underwear bomber was not a Middle Eastern male.
Padillo was not a Middle Eastern male.

Grandmas an babies aren't conducting terrorist attacks but their parents might be and using the baby as cover.
And yes I have. She was searched. this child was searched, just incredibly badly.
The fact is that these "security" measures don't actually provide any security at all. You don't need to profile based on race, religion (which, as you point out, cannot be "seen" at a glance), sex, etc. Profiling, however, *IS* the key to real security (at least of transportation nodes).

In Israel, it is virtually impossible to profile for race, religion, etc. TBH, it's because ethnically there is virtually no difference between Sephardic Jews and the Arabic Muslims around them. So Israel must rely on behavioral profiling. You are watched, via camera (monitored & unmonitored), trained observers, and lay-people from the moment you turn into the airport property. You go through a variety of checkpoints; Most with no noticeable delay in your travel plans. You'll be questioned at various, random times by security, customs, ticket agents, and airport workers. They are looking not so much at what you are saying, but HOW you are saying it. And their security is VERY effective.

We're not Israel. We have 200 times the amount of traffic that Israel does, and an even greater number of airports. That won't work here. Even if it could its not going to be applied. Thats not how things are done in the US, whether you or I want it or not.

As the immortal bard once said, "there's the way things should be, and the way things are."
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by RottenApple »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:We're not Israel. We have 200 times the amount of traffic that Israel does, and an even greater number of airports. That won't work here. Even if it could its not going to be applied. Thats not how things are done in the US, whether you or I want it or not.

As the immortal bard once said, "there's the way things should be, and the way things are."
Funny, it works elsewhere in the world just fine. Israeli airport security experts have been training airport personnel all over the globe on how to use these techniques and helping modify them for their particular location/demographics. The simple fact is that it will work here, with some tweaks and modifications of course.

You are, however, quite correct that it will most likely never be applied here. But the reason for that has nothing to do with it being impossible or too difficult or too expensive to implement behavioral profiling methods here. The reason is that it is not, nor has it ever been, about security. It's about control. Plain and simple.
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

Regardless, thats not going to happen here, so we're back to searches.
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by RottenApple »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:Regardless, thats not going to happen here, so we're back to searches.
And right back to "security theater" as performed by the Totally Stupid Agency. :tiphat:
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by JSThane »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:Regardless, thats not going to happen here, so we're back to searches.
And right back to violations of the Fourth Amendment, with reference to "unreasonable searches and seizures." I would say that intrusive searches not based upon Probable Cause, with an efficacy rate of 0% at preventing/apprehending what they're supposed to apprehend and prevent, sound pretty unreasonable.

I'm a law enforcement officer. If I treated people in the course of my job the way TSA routinely treats airline passengers, I would be in jail, and my department would be facing (and losing) a massive civil rights lawsuit.

And the simple matter is, if you're attempting to simply kill large numbers of the travelling public, the inspection queues have replaced the planes themselves as primary soft targets. Often the queues have -more- people lined up than any one plane has aboard. It is only when the goal is -takeover- and usage of the plane itself as a weapon that any sort of measures become all that effective, and the only real effective measure there is legally armed passengers (at the moment, a slot sometimes filled by Air Marshals and other LEO). Attacking the plane with explosives serves no purpose that attacking the queue wouldn't.

The underwear bomber got his explosives on the plane undetected. He was stopped by passengers and crew, as well as his own incompetence. TSA had nothing to do with him until after he was stopped.

The shoe bomber got his explosives on the plane undetected. He too was stopped by passengers and crew, as well as his own incompetence. TSA also had nothing to do with him until after the fact.

IIRC, it was the Time Square bomber that boarded a plane with an active "Be On the LookOut" order for him, sent to ALL law enforcement AND airports in the region, including the TSA. They let him board anyway, and the plane was taxiing to the runway before they realized their error.

To date, I do not know of one single instance where TSA has stopped, intercepted, or prevented a terrorist attack.

However, I do know of TSA agents who have stolen Mont Blanc pens, money, iPads, flashlights, and more. I know of TSA agents who made South Park's "officer Cartman" and his "respect my authority" spiel seem reasonable and polite. I know of TSA agents who have groped and fondled infants, elderly, and clergy, sometimes for their own sick kicks, and sometimes for the express purpose of "teaching a lesson." I know of cases where TSA agents have accused people of money laundering, check kiting, theft, and many many more alleged crimes, usually based upon spurious and specious "evidence" for which the TSA had no authority or cause to look for (and which always gets thrown out, and often results in another lawsuit). They are incompetent, ineffective, and infringing. The "good" TSA employees are usually hampered by regulation and corruption, the many bad ones are protected by the same.

They serve one purpose: to accustom the American public to arbitrary searches, groping, and embarrassment. As an LEO myself, I find I have absolutely -zero- respect for them, their job, their efficacy, their stated purpose, or their unstated purpose. I have too much respect for the Constitution and the oath I swore to accord the TSA anything but scorn. :rules:

---

PS, to whichever NSA or CIA spook that may or may not read this because I twigged your filters with words like "terrorist," "TSA," "plane," and "incompetent," you know where to find me; come and chat. I'll make coffee. :biggrinjester:
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

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I've shared my family's personal experience with the TSA on this forum so I'll just say this. I have no faith in the effectiveness of this agency. Heaven help you if you get a false positive on a swab.
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by K.Mooneyham »

JSThane wrote:
Cedar Park Dad wrote:Regardless, thats not going to happen here, so we're back to searches.
And right back to violations of the Fourth Amendment, with reference to "unreasonable searches and seizures." I would say that intrusive searches not based upon Probable Cause, with an efficacy rate of 0% at preventing/apprehending what they're supposed to apprehend and prevent, sound pretty unreasonable.

I'm a law enforcement officer. If I treated people in the course of my job the way TSA routinely treats airline passengers, I would be in jail, and my department would be facing (and losing) a massive civil rights lawsuit.

And the simple matter is, if you're attempting to simply kill large numbers of the travelling public, the inspection queues have replaced the planes themselves as primary soft targets. Often the queues have -more- people lined up than any one plane has aboard. It is only when the goal is -takeover- and usage of the plane itself as a weapon that any sort of measures become all that effective, and the only real effective measure there is legally armed passengers (at the moment, a slot sometimes filled by Air Marshals and other LEO). Attacking the plane with explosives serves no purpose that attacking the queue wouldn't.

The underwear bomber got his explosives on the plane undetected. He was stopped by passengers and crew, as well as his own incompetence. TSA had nothing to do with him until after he was stopped.

The shoe bomber got his explosives on the plane undetected. He too was stopped by passengers and crew, as well as his own incompetence. TSA also had nothing to do with him until after the fact.

IIRC, it was the Time Square bomber that boarded a plane with an active "Be On the LookOut" order for him, sent to ALL law enforcement AND airports in the region, including the TSA. They let him board anyway, and the plane was taxiing to the runway before they realized their error.

To date, I do not know of one single instance where TSA has stopped, intercepted, or prevented a terrorist attack.

However, I do know of TSA agents who have stolen Mont Blanc pens, money, iPads, flashlights, and more. I know of TSA agents who made South Park's "officer Cartman" and his "respect my authority" spiel seem reasonable and polite. I know of TSA agents who have groped and fondled infants, elderly, and clergy, sometimes for their own sick kicks, and sometimes for the express purpose of "teaching a lesson." I know of cases where TSA agents have accused people of money laundering, check kiting, theft, and many many more alleged crimes, usually based upon spurious and specious "evidence" for which the TSA had no authority or cause to look for (and which always gets thrown out, and often results in another lawsuit). They are incompetent, ineffective, and infringing. The "good" TSA employees are usually hampered by regulation and corruption, the many bad ones are protected by the same.

They serve one purpose: to accustom the American public to arbitrary searches, groping, and embarrassment. As an LEO myself, I find I have absolutely -zero- respect for them, their job, their efficacy, their stated purpose, or their unstated purpose. I have too much respect for the Constitution and the oath I swore to accord the TSA anything but scorn. :rules:

---

PS, to whichever NSA or CIA spook that may or may not read this because I twigged your filters with words like "terrorist," "TSA," "plane," and "incompetent," you know where to find me; come and chat. I'll make coffee. :biggrinjester:
EXCELLENT! The more I read, the bigger I smiled. Thanks. :thumbs2:
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by The Annoyed Man »

johncanfield wrote:This is another example of why I will go to almost any length to avoid setting foot in an airport. I'd rather drive for three days than take an hour plane ride.
You and me both. I've flown a few times since I moved here in 2006 because it simply wasn't possible to drive given the time constraints. Each of those trips was to California, except one, which was to Florida. But I've driven to California and back several times since 2006 too. Given my druthers, I'd rather drive. You see more of the country that way too. I'm blessed (if you can call it that) in that I can bring my work with me if I have to. All I need is an Internet connection and a phone and I can get my work done.

I just wish my brothers would come visit me here just once. :???:
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by Dave2 »

SQLGeek wrote:I've shared my family's personal experience with the TSA on this forum so I'll just say this. I have no faith in the effectiveness of this agency. Heaven help you if you get a false positive on a swab.
With all the times I've used my backback as a range bag, I'm pretty surprised they haven't alerted on my stuff.
I am not a lawyer, nor have I played one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, nor should anything I say be taken as legal advice. If it is important that any information be accurate, do not use me as the only source.
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Re: TSA inspects to tears a 3 year old with Spinabifida

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

JSThane wrote:
Cedar Park Dad wrote:Regardless, thats not going to happen here, so we're back to searches.
And right back to violations of the Fourth Amendment, with reference to "unreasonable searches and seizures." I would say that intrusive searches not based upon Probable Cause, with an efficacy rate of 0% at preventing/apprehending what they're supposed to apprehend and prevent, sound pretty unreasonable.

(compressed for length):
I pretty much agree with everything you posted :patriot:

My only point to the OP was, if you're going to do this, it can be done quickly without problems.
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