Great article on active shooter for the armed citizen

[CHLLady]

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/a ... ed-citizen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Powerful advice and food for thought.

I particularly liked his discussion on how to not get shot by a cop while appearing to be a BG and how to relax your stance and put away your weapon if possible.

Your thoughts?

[The Annoyed Man]

There's some good stuff in there, but I have a problem with battlefield pickups. I can't think of a faster way to get shot by arriving police than to be the one holding the AR when they arrive, expecting to find a shooter with an AR.

I think the things of primary value are:

- carry enough gun

- get good with that gun

- try some of the exercises he recommended

If you insist on carrying what is commonly called a "mouse-gun," that's OK.....that's your decision for your protection, but don't expect that it will be very useful in an active shooter situation unless the bad guy confronts you and you have no escape. Running down a bad guy to take him down, armed with a P3AT and 6 rounds of .380 is simply outside the bounds of wisdom for anybody who is not a true ninja with a whole LOT of training. The author is 100% right in that regard. I would never willingly engage a mass shooter out in the open, particularly with an underpowered gun of low capacity. I'd only shoot from cover or concealment........preferably cover (if you don't know the difference, learn it, it could save your life). Remember, if the BG has an AR/AK, his bullets will go sailing right through some stuff that would stop a handgun round cold, so choose cover wisely. And I'd only engage with a gun I know I can hit with at some distance and still pack some wallop. That's why I like .45 ACP with decent sights. Even 9mm is easy to hit with at a distance and many 9mm pistols have real sights. But .380 and smaller is going to be pretty much useless beyond a few yards, and most of those little guns don't have sights intended for use over any kind of distance.

For an older poop such as myself, running and gunning is pretty much out of the question. So it is either flee (the most likely), or stand and fight (if there is no better alternative). I will feel bad for any of the other victims, but I will refuse to take responsibility for not having sacrificed my own life in a vain attempt to save them...........again, unless there is simply no other choice. Little children automatically earn a right to my protection that their parents don't get to claim.

[Pecos]

CHLLady -Thanks for sharing that. Good stuff!!!

[treeman]

Yes, a good article and lots of food for thought - especially considering the increase in the number of school districts allowing some select employees to carry concealed. Those allowed to carry must consider and work through this - and practice practice practice.

[CHLLady]

CHLLady -Thanks for sharing that. Good stuff!!!

You're very welcome! I'm glad you agreed it was good info.

I was hoping you would look it over Annoyed Man. I need to know the limits of my gun. I did not consider this before reading this article and your comments. I do wish to move up in gun size, but at this point, I have to stick with what I'm comfortable with.

I've always been of the mindset that I must see my children to safety first, and if the opportunity to escape with them quickly happens, I must take it. But if the persons gun jammed, then that might be something to consider as well.
So much to consider in this and his other excellent articles.

[The Annoyed Man]

I've always been of the mindset that I must see my children to safety first, and if the opportunity to escape with them quickly happens, I must take it. But if the persons gun jammed, then that might be something to consider as well.
So much to consider in this and his other excellent articles.

I would say, it doesn't matter if the BG's gun jams or not, you've got a primary responsibility to get your children to safety if it is at all possible. That responsibility is many orders of magnitude more important than any opportunity to take out a bad guy, no matter how opportune. If your kids are not there, then you can consider other options.....if you want to. But when the kids are present, you have no higher duty than to get them to safety, whatever the cost. Let somebody else deal with the bad guy.

As far as your choice of gun, you're the only one who can decide what works for you. My wife carries a Kahr CW9, which is a smallish single stack 9mm of low weight. She finds it relatively easy to shoot. In fact, she owns a Glock 19 which is substantially heavier and ought to be easier for her to shoot given that it's heavier weight would dampen recoil, but apparently the much lighter Kahr manages recoil very well, and she likes the trigger better too.

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-CW9.asp

Caliber: 9mm
Capacity: 7+1
Operation: Trigger cocking DAO; lock breech; "Browning - type" recoil lug; passive striker block; no magazine disconnect
Barrel: 3.565", conventional rifling; 1-10 right-hand twist
Length O/A: 5.9"
Height: 4.5"
Slide Width: .90"
Weight: Pistol 15.8 ounces, Magazine 1.9 ounces
Grips: Textured polymer
Sights: Drift adjustable white bar-dot combat rear sight, pinned in polymer front sight
Finish: Black polymer frame, matte stainless steel slide
Magazine: 1 - 7 rd, Stainless

MSRP may be $485, but we only paid $399 for hers, new in the box, and I'll bed you can find them for cheaper than that if you look hard enough. And with a spare magazine, you've got 14+1 rounds of 9mm, which is a solid self-defense caliber.

Something to consider....

[texanjoker]

Good article.

[iom]

Good read. Thanks for posting. I always learn or reinforce things from well put together articles like this.

[CHLLady]

Yes, you are 100% correct, in an active shooter incident escape is priority. That's a learned lesson from Kenya. But if I'm stuck at the back of a convenience store with them... Thankfully, I don't go in very often, only when traveling.

Nice! It is similar in shape to my Taurus. I will see if I can rent them at my gun range. Thank you!

[jmra]

Agree with TAM on not picking up the AR/AK. Thought the info about bolstering the weapon, not being in a shooters stance, and putting something between you and arriving police was all sound advice. Not sure I want to "hide" the BGs gun. Would have to think about that one.
Another thing to remember is that often the BG is not looking to engage armed resistance. We've seen a number of cases where the BG kills himself as soon as he meets that resistance. So even a shot that misses and hits the brick wall behind him could be enough to end the threat. IIRC, a shooter in a mall recently killed himself at the very first sight of an armed citizen.

[The Annoyed Man]

Another thing to consider is that, increasingly, these cretins sport the most fashionable body armor to their "events." A bobbing, moving head is a difficult target. A COM shot with a handgun may be more than useless....so follow this reasoning....

1. A well aimed shot to the pelvis/hip may at least put the BG down by means of smashing a skeletal support structure, even if it doesn't kill him.
2. That would take a measured, well-aimed shot.
3. That shot would take time to set up......
4. .....time you could possibly be using to effect an escape.

Kudos to those who would run toward the sound of the guns, and who have the training to deal with the situation—whether LEOs or citizen veterans. This saturday, I'll be 61 years old. Those days are long past for me. I would make a stand if forced to without available alternatives; and if I just happened to be packing my AR15 I might be willing to set up a longer distance shot from a safer position (but that's not going to happen because I'm not one of "those" guys); and if there were defenseless children present, I would do whatever I had to do to protect them; but absent those kinds of things, I don't get paid to take down bad guys. I pay taxes so that other people who HAVE the training AND the weapons will get paid to take down bad guys.

I just want to make it home to my Lazyboy. I've earned it. My wife deserves to have me home.

[The Annoyed Man]

Here's your "active shooter" situation:

[ELB]

Let me add a contrary view to the seemingly prevailing negative view in this thread on "battlefield pickups," and also the comment about active shooters folding when confronted with someone willing to shoot back.

Startiwith the premise that a handgun is a poor choice to do battle with, given that it has poor stopping power, often limited capacity, and it is difficult to get a hit with it even a close range under pressure, never mind the mulitple hits often required because of its anemic ammunition. The only reason we carry it is because it is convenient to tote around. Everything more effective is too big, awkward to carry , and draws unwanted attention, especially where it might be illegal.

Also the premise that for whatever reason you aren't just straight-away bugging out. You stayed for your kids or someone else's kids or just because you think it needs to be done.

If there is a single shooter and you put him down with handgun rounds, or he surrenders, or offs himself, then fine. Those are the Seung-Hui Cho (Virginia Tech) or Matthew Murray (New Life Church) kind of active shooters, the ones with psychological issues. If you know that's what you have, and once he is down it is over (how do you know, btw?) then fine, leave his rifle where it is, holster up, wait for the cops (or probably better, leave the area and hook up with the cops later).

But any scenario where there is more than one shooter, and especially if it is a Westgate Mall/Mumbai/Beslan type of event (which I am sure we will see CONUS one of these days) or a spillover from one drug cartel whacking another, then you need all the effective firepower you can get. They are not going to fold just because you are have a handgun. If you can bag one and take his rifle, then you might have a chance against the others.

Worrying about getting crossways with responding cops is kind of like worrying about getting prosecuted or sued for defending yourself. If that is your biggest worry at the time, then you do not need to be doing battle, you need to be exiting the scene or hiding.

In pretty much all these events, it takes awhile for the official response to get on scene. The best defense against getting shot by the cops is do what you need to do quickly. Then ditch long arms, conceal sidearms, and exit the area with whoever you are defending at the first possibility.

You may do everything "right" and still get shot by the bad guys or the good guys, there will be no guarantee that anything you do works.

But if you fight, fight with every advantage you can seize.

[texanjoker]

During the first active shooter event I responded to, there was an off duty leo on site. He made sure he was properly identified and then joined the 1st team that ultimately took the suspect down - after 17 kids were shot. The suspect was armed with 22 caliber assault REVOLVER! He was actually reloading again when taken down.

[Dadtodabone]

During the first active shooter event I responded to, there was an off duty leo on site. He made sure he was properly identified and then joined the 1st team that ultimately took the suspect down - after 17 kids were shot. The suspect was armed with 22 caliber assault REVOLVER! He was actually reloading again when taken down.

Santana?