Another school question

[N2rock]

My house is just a few blocks away from a high school. My wife and I often walk our dogs- our route takes us down a bayou, then on a sidewalk that borders the school's soccer field, past the football field, past the school's baseball field, across the school's parking lot, and back into our neighborhood.

Question becomes that since we are on a lot of school property, at any given time there can be a school soccer, football, or baseball game going on as we are walking by- is it ok go carry. FWIW we never stop to watch any of the games, so we are definitely not participating in the school event.

2nd question- during the week my wife walks the dogs on that same route while school is in session. Would this be an issue if she carried while walking the dogs on that route?

[Vol Texan]

If you have your Texas CHL as a Texas resident, then you should have no problem. If you have no CHL, or if you have one from another state (and not a Texas one), then you could possibly be violating the GFSZ (Gun Free School Zone).

Never go inside a building on campus. Not even the bathroom of the outdoor stadium.

[oohrah]

My instructor told us that on the sidewalks was OK, but if there was a school activity on the grounds, then they were considered premises also.

I try not to get wrapped up in details, and avoid these iffy situations altogether.

[N2rock]

If you have your Texas CHL as a Texas resident, then you should have no problem. If you have no CHL, or if you have one from another state (and not a Texas one), then you could possibly be violating the GFSZ (Gun Free School Zone).

Never go inside a building on campus. Not even the bathroom of the outdoor stadium.

Both of us will be CHL holders very soon (waiting for delivery).

I try not to get wrapped up in details, and avoid these iffy situations altogether.

Yeah, we probably won't "test" this out. I was posing the question out of curiosity.

[jbarn]

My instructor told us that on the sidewalks was OK, but if there was a school activity on the grounds, then they were considered premises also.

Not exactly. While it is unlawful to carry on the premises of a school, grounds are never "considered premises". Premises has a specific definition.

However, penal code 46.03 also makes it unlawful to carry on the grounds where any school sponsored event is taking place. For the OP, carry is unlawful if they are on the grounds where the school sponsored event is taking place. I would also not begin to venture a guess about their specific situation without seeing it........

[RoyGBiv]

My house is just a few blocks away from a high school. My wife and I often walk our dogs- our route takes us down a bayou, then on a sidewalk that borders the school's soccer field, past the football field, past the school's baseball field, across the school's parking lot, and back into our neighborhood.

Question becomes that since we are on a lot of school property, at any given time there can be a school soccer, football, or baseball game going on as we are walking by- is it ok go carry. FWIW we never stop to watch any of the games, so we are definitely not participating in the school event.

2nd question- during the week my wife walks the dogs on that same route while school is in session. Would this be an issue if she carried while walking the dogs on that route?

1. If you do not currently have your TX CHL, you are in violation of the Federal GFSZ Act, which prohibits guns within 1000 feet of any school (you are OK driving to and from your house, IIRC, but not ok walking the dogs)
2. If you DO (or after you receive) your TX CHL you are ok walking the dogs and walking on the campus as long as you do not enter any "premises" (defined in 46.035). This exceptin is made ONLY for a school located in the same state that issued your CHL. A TX CHL cannot carry through a school zone in OK without violating the GFSZA, for example.
3. Also prohibited is carrying on the "grounds" (46.03(a)(1)) "...on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted." In my opinion, anything from recess to PE class to a HS varsity game would constitute "activity" and CHL would be off limits. You would be best to stay on public sidewalks if any outside activity is taking place during school hours.

This is my OPINION. I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice. I did NOT sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[chasfm11]

My house is just a few blocks away from a high school. My wife and I often walk our dogs- our route takes us down a bayou, then on a sidewalk that borders the school's soccer field, past the football field, past the school's baseball field, across the school's parking lot, and back into our neighborhood.

Question becomes that since we are on a lot of school property, at any given time there can be a school soccer, football, or baseball game going on as we are walking by- is it ok go carry. FWIW we never stop to watch any of the games, so we are definitely not participating in the school event.

2nd question- during the week my wife walks the dogs on that same route while school is in session. Would this be an issue if she carried while walking the dogs on that route?

1. If you do not currently have your TX CHL, you are in violation of the Federal GFSZ Act, which prohibits guns within 1000 feet of any school (you are OK driving to and from your house, IIRC, but not ok walking the dogs)
2. If you DO (or after you receive) your TX CHL you are ok walking the dogs and walking on the campus as long as you do not enter any "premises" (defined in 46.035). This exceptin is made ONLY for a school located in the same state that issued your CHL. A TX CHL cannot carry through a school zone in OK without violating the GFSZA, for example.
3. Also prohibited is carrying on the "grounds" (46.03(a)(1)) "...on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted." In my opinion, anything from recess to PE class to a HS varsity game would constitute "activity" and CHL would be off limits. You would be best to stay on public sidewalks if any outside activity is taking place during school hours.

This is my OPINION. I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice. I did NOT sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

with the above including the disclaimers

Our city has a bike path that runs along the back of two schools. It is clearly marked as a city facility. The schools, however, use the path for school activities like PE class. I ride my bike 3 times a week for cardio exercise along those paths. In the past, I've an an interaction with a school principal along one of those areas. While I disagree with what he told me, the possibility of what he said to me causes me not to carry on my rides if school is in session. I probably have a better chance of getting hit by lightning but I'm not willing to take the risk and become a test case for the "school activity" part of the law. After school hours, the situation is much more clear, at least for me. I'd even bend regarding the after school programs because, while they are held within the school buildings, they are run by different personnel and I think it would be easier to make the case that they are not official school business when they take the kids enrolled in them outside and onto the bike path.

Overall for me, this is a case of beating the rap but not the ride so my avoidance is much more financial than legal. I'm painfully aware that school administrators are overwhelmingly Liberal and often rabidly anti-gun. Since an interaction with an LEO while carrying and being asked for ID would force me to show my CHL, that is part of the risk factor as I see it. On balance, I challenged a near-by city when they put up a fence around a downtown event and were wanding entrants. I easily won over whether I could carry there or not so I'm not averse to sticking up for my rights. I just pick the circumstances where I'm willing to do that.

[txglock21]

chasfm11: "Our city has a bike path that runs along the back of two schools. It is clearly marked as a city facility. The schools, however, use the path for school activities like PE class."

To me this is the same as being at a zoo or museum while a school field trip is there. As long as you are not apart of the function and are not on school property, it shouldn't matter if you carry. This goes the same for walking down a sidewalk in front of a school as long as it's within the city easement.( And you have a TXCHL of course). YMMV

[chasfm11]

chasfm11: "Our city has a bike path that runs along the back of two schools. It is clearly marked as a city facility. The schools, however, use the path for school activities like PE class."

To me this is the same as being at a zoo or museum while a school field trip is there. As long as you are not apart of the function and are not on school property, it shouldn't matter if you carry. This goes the same for walking down a sidewalk in front of a school as long as it's within the city easement.( And you have a TXCHL of course). YMMV

My opinion is that LE and sometimes the courts don't think in the same precise terms as we do here on the forum. A lot of how far something goes would depend on the circumstances surrounding it. A case in point is nearby Grapevine chief of police's statement that it is his officer's discretion to arrest a CHL for carrying at Grapevine Mills Mall under an obviously (to us) non-compliant 30.060 sign there.

I've been involved with a fellow who is trying to expand the Argyle teacher carry program to other nearby districts. Not one of chief's of police in the areas covered in those ISDs supports the Argyle concept. Their reasons sound a lot like their lack of acceptance of the whole concept of CHL. It is in that context that I operate. I have no reservations that I could ultimately prevail if I were arrested but it would likely come at a significant financial cost. My risk assessment suggests that of all the places that I could go where I might need my gun, that bike path is on the lowest risk location list. While I understand no risk assessment is perfect, we all make them. I'm averaging nearly 14mph over varied terrain during my rides and believe that it would be very opportunistic for some BG to setup for me. It is not like the Katy Trail in Dallas where exactly that has happened.

We all make our choices. This is mine.

[C-dub]

Chasfm11, I'm still curious what the principal told you that has convinced to not carry on your bike ride during school hours.

[n5wd]

...Our city has a bike path that runs along the back of two schools. It is clearly marked as a city facility. The schools, however, use the path for school activities like PE class. I ride my bike 3 times a week for cardio exercise along those paths. In the past, I've an an interaction with a school principal along one of those areas. While I disagree with what he told me, the possibility of what he said to me causes me not to carry on my rides if school is in session....

With all deference due to the principal, the chances are that he/she knows exactly what the law says is probably low. He knows, for example, that his school is posted as a guns-free zone by federal law (because of all the stickers administration sent him to post on all the doors). And, he knows that he feels like he's responsible for every inch of school property (because all the administrators above him, and the citizens below him, keep telling him so), but...

The reason I feel fairly sure about that is that before her death, my wife was an elementary school principal for one of the local districts, and until she and I sat down and talked about it, she didn't know exactly what the law said with respect to CHL licensees. (The incident that brought about the discussion was a neighbor who had a negligent discharge of a gun in a grassland that was on school district property next to a walking path that was on the condominium's property - after school hours but while people were still in the parking lot and in/around the school building.

[chasfm11]

Chasfm11, I'm still curious what the principal told you that has convinced to not carry on your bike ride during school hours.

The altercation with the principal was whether I should be there at all, not over CC. His stance was that the bike path should not be used at all by non-school personnel during the school day. Since you asked, I'll provide some more details.

My ride across that part of the bike path lasts less than 45 seconds - I've timed it. He stopped me and asked what I was doing there. Out of breath and in exercise clothing (duh), I responded "doing cardio exercise" - my total statement. He then proceeded to lecture me that he disagreed with the city's parks board (by the way, there are no signs anywhere) that the paths should be available. Then he launched into telling me that I was doing my exercise all wrong and that I were doing it correctly, I would find "a better environment". And finally, and most telling, he told me that by just my being there, he would get 20 calls from concerned mothers. After all, I was to assume, every guy over 60 posed a threat to the children even if the children weren't present (there wasn't one within 100 yards of me at that time,) He told me that he had warned other exercisers.

In that context, I could have received a "no trespass" warning and he could contact the police if he saw me again. Honestly, I try to avoid riding there when school is in session anyway but sometimes it just doesn't work out. Who knows what actions he might take. I'm willing to press the issue a bit by continuing to use that part of the path as the need arises. I just don't want to add CC to possibly make a situation worse.

So permit me a bit of a rant, too. I'm an ex-school teacher. In my short teaching career, I had to deal with several other D.EDs. who exhibited the same pompous attitude as this guy. It is one thing to say that you are concerned with a stranger on the school grounds and another to puff yourself up and deliver a demeaning lecture. I was proud of myself that I didn't respond because I'm very capable of digging myself yet a larger hole under such circumstances but it was clear that nothing that I could have said to him would have mattered and would likely have resulted in my speaking with officers that day. I get it that this guy believes the ground in question is his personal fiefdom. I think I could win the battle with the city over his attitude, too, but I'm not willing to preemptively take the matter on. I'll just keep riding, avoiding the school day when I can and take my chances otherwise. But for me, it points up the exposure that could happen at the middle school as well. There, the kids are all over the bike path in appropriate weather and there is no telling what could happen on any given day. The school activity part would be very difficult to argue against.

[txglock21]

chasfm11: "Our city has a bike path that runs along the back of two schools. It is clearly marked as a city facility. The schools, however, use the path for school activities like PE class."

To me this is the same as being at a zoo or museum while a school field trip is there. As long as you are not apart of the function and are not on school property, it shouldn't matter if you carry. This goes the same for walking down a sidewalk in front of a school as long as it's within the city easement.( And you have a TXCHL of course). YMMV

My opinion is that LE and sometimes the courts don't think in the same precise terms as we do here on the forum. A lot of how far something goes would depend on the circumstances surrounding it. A case in point is nearby Grapevine chief of police's statement that it is his officer's discretion to arrest a CHL for carrying at Grapevine Mills Mall under an obviously (to us) non-compliant 30.060 sign there.

I've been involved with a fellow who is trying to expand the Argyle teacher carry program to other nearby districts. Not one of chief's of police in the areas covered in those ISDs supports the Argyle concept. Their reasons sound a lot like their lack of acceptance of the whole concept of CHL. It is in that context that I operate. I have no reservations that I could ultimately prevail if I were arrested but it would likely come at a significant financial cost. My risk assessment suggests that of all the places that I could go where I might need my gun, that bike path is on the lowest risk location list. While I understand no risk assessment is perfect, we all make them. I'm averaging nearly 14mph over varied terrain during my rides and believe that it would be very opportunistic for some BG to setup for me. It is not like the Katy Trail in Dallas where exactly that has happened.

We all make our choices. This is mine.

I hope you don't take it that I was saying you were wrong, just expressing my opinion on your situation. You are right, we all make our own choices and that is why I added the "YMMV" at the end of my comment.

[chasfm11]

I hope you don't take it that I was saying you were wrong, just expressing my opinion on your situation. You are right, we all make our own choices and that is why I added the "YMMV" at the end of my comment.

No worries. I like it when others have a different point of view from me. I've learned a lot more from being wrong. You're absolutely right that we all get different mileage out of similar situations. I'm had more than my share where I ended up like Joe Btfspik.

[C-dub]

Chasfm11, I'm still curious what the principal told you that has convinced to not carry on your bike ride during school hours.

The altercation with the principal was whether I should be there at all, not over CC. His stance was that the bike path should not be used at all by non-school personnel during the school day. Since you asked, I'll provide some more details.

My ride across that part of the bike path lasts less than 45 seconds - I've timed it. He stopped me and asked what I was doing there. Out of breath and in exercise clothing (duh), I responded "doing cardio exercise" - my total statement. He then proceeded to lecture me that he disagreed with the city's parks board (by the way, there are no signs anywhere) that the paths should be available. Then he launched into telling me that I was doing my exercise all wrong and that I were doing it correctly, I would find "a better environment". And finally, and most telling, he told me that by just my being there, he would get 20 calls from concerned mothers. After all, I was to assume, every guy over 60 posed a threat to the children even if the children weren't present (there wasn't one within 100 yards of me at that time,) He told me that he had warned other exercisers.

In that context, I could have received a "no trespass" warning and he could contact the police if he saw me again. Honestly, I try to avoid riding there when school is in session anyway but sometimes it just doesn't work out. Who knows what actions he might take. I'm willing to press the issue a bit by continuing to use that part of the path as the need arises. I just don't want to add CC to possibly make a situation worse.

So permit me a bit of a rant, too. I'm an ex-school teacher. In my short teaching career, I had to deal with several other D.EDs. who exhibited the same pompous attitude as this guy. It is one thing to say that you are concerned with a stranger on the school grounds and another to puff yourself up and deliver a demeaning lecture. I was proud of myself that I didn't respond because I'm very capable of digging myself yet a larger hole under such circumstances but it was clear that nothing that I could have said to him would have mattered and would likely have resulted in my speaking with officers that day. I get it that this guy believes the ground in question is his personal fiefdom. I think I could win the battle with the city over his attitude, too, but I'm not willing to preemptively take the matter on. I'll just keep riding, avoiding the school day when I can and take my chances otherwise. But for me, it points up the exposure that could happen at the middle school as well. There, the kids are all over the bike path in appropriate weather and there is no telling what could happen on any given day. The school activity part would be very difficult to argue against.

I wouldn't talk to that tool anymore. I might, though, ask the school board or the local police department what their thoughts on the matter were. Telling them that I was a resident and that I use the city funded walking path for exercise and all that and see what they say about it. If their answer was similar to the principal's then I would do the same as you and stay away during school hours. If not, then I would ask if they could inform the principal of his error and to stop harassing good folks. But, that's just me.