Running serial numbers to check for stolen guns

[Jumping Frog]

Jumping Frog,

You know more about this than I do.

If, hypothetically speaking, I'm stopped by an LEO and have my pistol holstered in a OWB belted on zippered leather pack, that is, the pistol cannot be seen, and I've not broken any laws, but I was asked for I.D. by an LEO - they have no lawful right to run the SN?

(boy, that was a mouthful...)

Yes?

No?

They do not have the right to run the serial number for a handgun that is not in plain sight unless they can articulate some reasonable suspicion that they are stolen.

[WildBill]

Jumping Frog,

You know more about this than I do.

If, hypothetically speaking, I'm stopped by an LEO and have my pistol holstered in a OWB belted on zippered leather pack, that is, the pistol cannot be seen, and I've not broken any laws, but I was asked for I.D. by an LEO - they have no lawful right to run the SN?

(boy, that was a mouthful...)

Yes?

No?

They do not have the right to run the serial number for a handgun that is not in plain sight unless they can articulate some reasonable suspicion that they are stolen.

First my disclaimer, IANAL, but IMO if they desire they will run the serial number.
Hypothetically speaking, if it comes as back stolen and you are charged, then someone will have some explaining to do [in court].

[EEllis]

Jumping Frog,

You know more about this than I do.

If, hypothetically speaking, I'm stopped by an LEO and have my pistol holstered in a OWB belted on zippered leather pack, that is, the pistol cannot be seen, and I've not broken any laws, but I was asked for I.D. by an LEO - they have no lawful right to run the SN?

(boy, that was a mouthful...)

Yes?

No?

They do not have the right to run the serial number for a handgun that is not in plain sight unless they can articulate some reasonable suspicion that they are stolen.

Why? Mind you I don't like the idea and find it offensive but if the temporary possession of the firearm is legal and the number is in plain view what would prevent them from running the number. It's would seem like saying a cop can only run a plate if they have PC or RS. I mean a cop could go to a gun show and take surreptitious pics of SN# and run them without any question of legality that I ever heard of. I don't think there is a solid legal precedence for saying that a cop can't legally or constitutionally run the guns numbers aside from the fact that they may be holding you for extra time in doing so. Then it becomes an issue of what is a reasonable time not if they run SN#'s.

[Vol Texan]

Jumping Frog,

You know more about this than I do.

If, hypothetically speaking, I'm stopped by an LEO and have my pistol holstered in a OWB belted on zippered leather pack, that is, the pistol cannot be seen, and I've not broken any laws, but I was asked for I.D. by an LEO - they have no lawful right to run the SN?

(boy, that was a mouthful...)

Yes?

No?

They do not have the right to run the serial number for a handgun that is not in plain sight unless they can articulate some reasonable suspicion that they are stolen.

Why? Mind you I don't like the idea and find it offensive but if the temporary possession of the firearm is legal and the number is in plain view what would prevent them from running the number. It's would seem like saying a cop can only run a plate if they have PC or RS. I mean a cop could go to a gun show and take surreptitious pics of SN# and run them without any question of legality that I ever heard of. I don't think there is a solid legal precedence for saying that a cop can't legally or constitutionally run the guns numbers aside from the fact that they may be holding you for extra time in doing so. Then it becomes an issue of what is a reasonable time not if they run SN#'s.

Well, we are required to display our license plates on our cars while driving. I don't think there is such a requirement to publicly display our serial numbers while carrying.

It's ideas like the one you posted above that make me think of putting a small piece of electrical tape on the recessed area under my slide that holds the serial number. If needed to be exposed for a criminal investigation, then it's a simple lift-off (nothing permanently altered or obscured). But for the casual, "well, I have your gun in my hand and I can clearly see the number, so there is no harm in me running it" attitude espoused above, I think it might not pass the test unless they intentionally remove the tape.

[Jumping Frog]

They do not have the right to run the serial number for a handgun that is not in plain sight unless they can articulate some reasonable suspicion that they are stolen.

Why? Mind you I don't like the idea and find it offensive but if the temporary possession of the firearm is legal and the number is in plain view what would prevent them from running the number.

I think you misread the discussion. Previously, I already stated that a number in plain sight meets the plain sight exception and is fair game for a search. The part you quoted was specifically limited to a handgun either in a holster or in a case where the serial number was NOT in plain sight.

[Abraham]

Further, in the example I posed, the entire pistol cannot be seen.

[EEllis]

They do not have the right to run the serial number for a handgun that is not in plain sight unless they can articulate some reasonable suspicion that they are stolen.

Why? Mind you I don't like the idea and find it offensive but if the temporary possession of the firearm is legal and the number is in plain view what would prevent them from running the number.

I think you misread the discussion. Previously, I already stated that a number in plain sight meets the plain sight exception and is fair game for a search. The part you quoted was specifically limited to a handgun either in a holster or in a case where the serial number was NOT in plain sight.

Yeah I see that but I'm not aware of any direct case law that supports that conclusion. Would it be illegal for the cop to make a firearm safe if it is their possession? If not and if the SN# would be visible when doing so thus...... Really I don't see your position as an automatic winner if it goes to court. I mean you never know but I would put my money on the court's finding it legal and constitutional

[psijac]

Time to start carrying a custom 80% 1911 frame

[MechAg94]

Doesn't CHL law allow the officer to take temporary possession of the firearm during a traffic stop? Did that change?

[cb1000rider]

Doesn't CHL law allow the officer to take temporary possession of the firearm during a traffic stop? Did that change?

You're allowed to be disarmed. To me, that puts the gun in plain sight. The serial number issue IS invasive, but it hasn't been battled out in court yet (to my knowledge).

As buyers of firearms (private party) - it's kinda hard to run a serial number without asking for trouble...

[suthdj]

by running the serial they are saying your to stupid to know where you buy your guns from.

[Jumping Frog]

I don't see your position as an automatic winner if it goes to court. I mean you never know but I would put my money on the court's finding it legal and constitutional

Any cop worth his salt is going to articulate something as reasonable suspicion. This is one of those, "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" discussions, in that it may interest theorists but have little practical impact.

[EEllis]

I don't see your position as an automatic winner if it goes to court. I mean you never know but I would put my money on the court's finding it legal and constitutional

Any cop worth his salt is going to articulate something as reasonable suspicion. This is one of those, "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" discussions, in that it may interest theorists but have little practical impact.

I don't think they necessarily would in this case because doing so when there isn't RS, basically faking up a reason, would be almost admitting they need some kind of reason to run the numbers. I just don't think that's the case and I know that opinion is held by most law enforcement. In the scenario mentioned the gun would of been seized legally if temporarily and the numbers would be clearly visible in normal and reasonable handling. Not liking something does not mean there is some legal or constitutional bar to such actions.

[Maxwell]

Did the student agree to the search, or did he verbalize his lack of consent for the search?

An officer does not need consent for searching something that is in plain sight. If the gun was handed to him, the serial number is in plain sight.

Now, this is a largely theoretical issue because 99.99% of people will not litigate, but if the gun was handed to an officer while still in a holster, where the holster covered the serial number, then the officer would require either consent or reasonable articulable suspicion ("RAS") to conduct a serial number search by removing the gun from the holster. It would no longer qualify for the "plain sight exception".

As far as the OP, yes, I would lodge a written complaint with the department.

JF,

The officer has the right to disarm a CHL "for his or her safety" whether the gun is visible or not, correct? Since no one is going to hand the LEO their pistol ( are you really going to personally pull your loaded weapon from the holster in front of a LEO that wants to disarm you?) they have the right to pull the weapon themselves placing it in plan view. This makes your statement above completely irrelevant.

[Maxwell]

Did the student agree to the search, or did he verbalize his lack of consent for the search?

An officer does not need consent for searching something that is in plain sight. If the gun was handed to him, the serial number is in plain sight.

Now, this is a largely theoretical issue because 99.99% of people will not litigate, but if the gun was handed to an officer while still in a holster, where the holster covered the serial number, then the officer would require either consent or reasonable articulable suspicion ("RAS") to conduct a serial number search by removing the gun from the holster. It would no longer qualify for the "plain sight exception".

As far as the OP, yes, I would lodge a written complaint with the department.

JF,

The officer has the right to disarm a CHL "for his or her safety" whether the gun is visible or not, correct? Since no one is going to hand the LEO their pistol ( are you really going to personally pull your loaded weapon from the holster in front of a LEO that wants to disarm you?) they have the right to pull the weapon themselves placing it in plan view. This makes your statement above completely irrelevant.