Penalty For No Health Insurance? It Makes Me Sick

[LostInAustin]

Yes, the bill currently proposed by the House would give the Federal government direct access to everyone's bank account. In addition, it makes the IRS the enforcer of the law.

I would like to see the text of this...do you have a link or know where I can find a copy?

What about people with enough means to self fund their insurance?

[Mithras61]

This is insane. How could they possibly think that this will help fix the problem!??

I suppose it depends on what you think the problem is. If you think that the problem is that the insurance companies don't have sufficient revenue and that we (the people who are uninsured presently) are simply too cheap/lazy to pay for something we need to have, why then this might be something that would address those problems.

If you define the problem as obtaining health care is too expensive unless it is provided by your employer or the government (Medicare & Medicaid, VA benefits, etc.), then you are correct, this won't do anything to either bring down the cost or to expand the availability of health care.

If you think the problem with the cost of medical assistance is driven by other factors (people not carrying insurance & refusing to pay their bills, illegal immigrants using the emergency room for general care, frivolous lawsuits, etc.), then I have yet to hear any serious proposal that addresses the issues.


Every analysis I have seen suggests that the "reform" proposal from the Senate Finance Committee chairman indicates that everyone who has seen enough of it to comment thinks it will increase costs, bankruptcies and government interference in the system as a whole, with minimal improvement in insurance coverage (maybe half the uninsured will be able to afford to buy into the plan) and the vast majority of the "benefits" in this bill accruing to the insurance companies. In fact, I've seen this described variously as either the greatest gift the insurance industry could ever hope for to a "tax" that goes directly into the coffers of the insurance companies (and may even qualify as an illegal and unconstitutional taking). Sens. Baucus & Conrad seem to be the only ones that think its a good idea.

Oh, and FWIW, the Baucus plan includes the reporting of insurance "premiums" on a W-2 or other tax form, with the IRS processing the information as part of your federal tax info (sort of like SSI or Medicare taxes), and your taxes being increased by $3,800 per adult if none is reported. If this is in fact going to be handled by the IRS, it will probably become a tax credit that you get if you can prove you paid your health insurance.

[Kythas]

Yes, the bill currently proposed by the House would give the Federal government direct access to everyone's bank account. In addition, it makes the IRS the enforcer of the law.

I would like to see the text of this...do you have a link or know where I can find a copy?

What about people with enough means to self fund their insurance?

In the House version of the bill, the portion where the government has real time access to your bank accounts is on Pg. 58. Note this section also mentions a national ID card:

(D) enable the real-time (or near real time) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service and, to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility, which may include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card;

Page 59 allows the government to electronically transfer funds from your bank account:

(C) enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with the related health care payment and remittance advice;

If you have the means to self fund your insurance, and you work for a company that provides insurance, your company will be mandated to provide insurance to you under penalty of up to 8% payroll tax (depending on company size) for not providing health insurance.

A contribution is made in accordance with this section with respect to an employee if such contribution is equal to an amount equal to 8 percent of the average wages paid by the employer during the period of enrollment (determined by taking into account all employees of the employer and in such manner as the Commissioner provides, including rules providing for the appropriate aggregation of related employers).

If you do provide your own health insurance, it must meet government standards as to what the govt deems acceptable coverage, or you will pay a tax of 2.5% of your income to the government:

SEC. 59B. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.
(a) TAX IMPOSED.—In the case of any individual who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of—
(1) the taxpayer’s modified adjusted gross income for the taxable year, over
(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer.

Oh, and as an aside, here's one of my favorite parts of the bill. "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax":

(4) NOT TREATED AS TAX IMPOSED BY THIS CHAPTER FOR CERTAIN PURPOSES.—The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax imposed by this chapter for purposes of determining the amount of any credit under this chapter or for purposes of section 55.’’

The full text of the House bill can be found at http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[LostInAustin]

Thanks Kythas for sourcing.

[nitrogen]

That doesn't mean the govt gets direct access to your bank account.

[mr.72]

I agree about this being an issue of "what problem are we trying to solve".

The "problem" that is under review is not a problem of health care. It is a political problem. The "problem" that the so-called "health-care reform" is attempting to solve is, how do we get more people to vote the way we want them to vote?

Seemingly, the issue that is up for grabs is the "cost" and "access" of "health care". But these terms are not being defined in the traditional way.

"cost" in this case means "amount an individual must pay out of his or her own pocket". "Cost" does not include any amount that is taken from taxes, or any amount paid by an employer or anyone else.

"access" is defined as "a provision by someone else at someone else's expense". So if you say "I don't have access to health care" what you really mean is "I don't have a provision by someone else at someone else's expense to health care".

and "health care" is defined as "health insurance".

So, what we have are a number of people who either do not have their health insurance provided by an employer at the employer's sole expense, or who have to pay for some portion of their employer-provided health insurance premiums, who have been identified as a group of people whose votes may be for sale in exchange for the government making a promise to provide them with health insurance that does not cost them anything (realizing, that "cost" in this case, is the political definition above). The current administration and congress has determined that buying these votes may result in future victories for the party in power.

The solution that is put on the table is, in essence, to force everybody to buy health insurance whether they need it or not, and then hide the cost of it by taking the premium out of their taxes rather than an out of pocket expenditure. Those who do not pay taxes now, and who already are majority voting for Democrats, are going to believe that they are getting their rightful "health care" for "free". And they will be getting health insurance, in fact, for free. However, someone has to pay for it, and the ones paying for it are those who are already getting whatever health insurance they choose by private means now and who are also already bearing the majority of the tax burden for the entire country, and since this is not a numerical majority of voters, it is politically expedient to further burden them with the cost of providing yet another overreaching service to those of lesser means.

It is government forced charity just like welfare in any case and there is no other way to put it honestly.

And it works every time because the majority of taxes are paid by the minority, and therefore the minority cannot possibly succeed in preventing this extortion at the ballot box.

As they say, when you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can always count on the support of Paul. This is especially true when for every Peter, there are two Pauls, and what you need is a majority vote.

Alas, there is no practical solution to this problem. We are already in the middle of the slippery slope, slipping on down to the bottom. I fear that the ultimate result of this slide is inevitably going to be another American Revolution. That pesky 10th Amendment was supposed to prevent us from winding up on this slope to begin with, and the pesky 2nd Amendment is supposed to reinforce the application of the 10th as well as all the rest. But, as we can see, since we have empowered the government to extort with the 16th Amendment and unbalanced the powers of the Republic with the 17th Amendment, there is little value to the 10th or the 2nd practically speaking. We are quickly sliding into becoming a Democracy, which is the precursor to Socialism.

[casingpoint]

Was he lying, or making an affirmative misrepresentation, or maybe just doesn't know what in the Sam Hill he's talking about?

Things aren't always what government officials say they are:
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/09/ ... ims-obama/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But then again, things aren't always what Fox News says they are either.....

[Y2bad4u]

That doesn't mean the govt gets direct access to your bank account.

And it doesn't mean they can't either. Thats a big problem with the bill. It could do alot of good things or a lot of bad things. It's too broad and its a big gamble to let it pass and hope the government doesn't use it against us. And I'm a betting man, and I'm sure they will abuse it. Fix medicaid first.

[casingpoint]

http://michaelconnelly.viviti.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scroll down to the third article, on the constitutional aspects of the health care bill. Read the rest of the site at your own peril.

[stevie_d_64]

And here some of us are so worried he'll take our guns away???



I really, and honestly feel very sad for my Second Amendment supporting Democrat friends in this forum...That is a sincere concern I have for y'all politically, I really mean that...

For those that care to answer, I would like to ask for an honest reply, openly or privately...

"Is this the Hope and Change you really voted for???" "Is this what you wanted or expected???"

It is one thing to campaign to the center, but when you rule and legislate to the extreme left, I am not surprised, yet, I have to wonder why to some degree???

[jroberts1968]

All this is about the Government securing future earnings for there corporate buddies and there own personal investments, There greed is going to destroy our great country and there will be a upraising over this. I for one am tired of this debate. First and foremost we as Americans need to stop eating food that makes us sick and then taking a med to try to feel better. Eat less exercise more. Our health care is self inflicted and a conditioning of our minds to go see a Dr. after they see a stupid ass commercial for the latest pill. I am tired of hearing that obesity is a illness no what is sick is that a human being does not have the will power to step away from the Golden Corral buffet line! We are the fattest country on earth, we are the biggest consumers of energy on earth. we are the biggest consumers of health care on earth.

Look if a 50 year old man is so fat he needs a scooter to get around then. I have to say he put himself there. Instead taxing us to pay health care lets have a fat tax yeah that's rite a FAT tax. anything over 20% BMI you pay. I shouldn't have to pay for some twinky eater that can't get off his lazy backside and walk around a bit. The health care system is a scam.

Oh yeah and do not say how lucky I am for good health it is a choice guys.

You know what it's like AIDS we spend all this money on AIDS and the research here is one don't have have unprotected sex and don't use IV drugs and bingo aids goes down in our country, but they crach head wants his fix so he does it anyway. Well then there is the consequences for your actions. You die a nasty death.

[Purplehood]

All this is about the Government securing future earnings for there corporate buddies and there own personal investments, There greed is going to destroy our great country and there will be a upraising over this. I for one am tired of this debate. First and foremost we as Americans need to stop eating food that makes us sick and then taking a med to try to feel better. Eat less exercise more. Our health care is self inflicted and a conditioning of our minds to go see a Dr. after they see a stupid ass commercial for the latest pill. I am tired of hearing that obesity is a illness no what is sick is that a human being does not have the will power to step away from the Golden Corral buffet line! We are the fattest country on earth, we are the biggest consumers of energy on earth. we are the biggest consumers of health care on earth.

Look if a 50 year old man is so fat he needs a scooter to get around then. I have to say he put himself there. Instead taxing us to pay health care lets have a fat tax yeah that's rite a FAT tax. anything over 20% BMI you pay. I shouldn't have to pay for some twinky eater that can't get off his lazy backside and walk around a bit. The health care system is a scam.

Oh yeah and do not say how lucky I am for good health it is a choice guys.

You know what it's like AIDS we spend all this money on AIDS and the research here is one don't have have unprotected sex and don't use IV drugs and bingo aids goes down in our country, but they crach head wants his fix so he does it anyway. Well then there is the consequences for your actions. You die a nasty death.

I had the exact same attitude as this poster when I was a 111 lb. scarecrow at Parris Island. Now that I am a 190 lb. short 50-year old that has always led an active life, I no longer agree. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if I am more physically active than many folks that are 30-50 lbs. lighter than myself.
As the reader may surmise from my posts, I hate generalizations.

[stevie_d_64]

All this is about the Government securing future earnings for there corporate buddies and there own personal investments, There greed is going to destroy our great country and there will be a upraising over this. I for one am tired of this debate. First and foremost we as Americans need to stop eating food that makes us sick and then taking a med to try to feel better. Eat less exercise more. Our health care is self inflicted and a conditioning of our minds to go see a Dr. after they see a stupid ass commercial for the latest pill. I am tired of hearing that obesity is a illness no what is sick is that a human being does not have the will power to step away from the Golden Corral buffet line! We are the fattest country on earth, we are the biggest consumers of energy on earth. we are the biggest consumers of health care on earth.

Look if a 50 year old man is so fat he needs a scooter to get around then. I have to say he put himself there. Instead taxing us to pay health care lets have a fat tax yeah that's rite a FAT tax. anything over 20% BMI you pay. I shouldn't have to pay for some twinky eater that can't get off his lazy backside and walk around a bit. The health care system is a scam.

Oh yeah and do not say how lucky I am for good health it is a choice guys.

You know what it's like AIDS we spend all this money on AIDS and the research here is one don't have have unprotected sex and don't use IV drugs and bingo aids goes down in our country, but they crach head wants his fix so he does it anyway. Well then there is the consequences for your actions. You die a nasty death.

I had the exact same attitude as this poster when I was a 111 lb. scarecrow at Parris Island. Now that I am a 190 lb. short 50-year old that has always led an active life, I no longer agree. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if I am more physically active than many folks that are 30-50 lbs. lighter than myself.
As the reader may surmise from my posts, I hate generalizations.

So would you agree that it may be the "people" who are broken, and not the healthcare system that is strained to take care of them???

People are free in this country to make good and or bad descisions, and in some cases the rest of us are charged to take care of those bad descisions...Whether it is a legal or illegal descision...

I believe the emphasis is politically misdirected, our government needs to finally realize that they are not supposed to be the fix-all for every social ill that plagues this country and the rest of the world...No matter how compassionate you wish us (as a nation) to be...

Remember the "few" Constitutionally driven priorities of our government...

- Provide for the common defense... (speak softly and smartly, and carry a big stick)

- Promote the general welfare... (that does not mean provide handouts and programs to support personal difficiencies)

- Secure the blessings of liberty... (remember life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness??? If some people do not wish to live, be free and be happy in this country, the government should not be obliged to do things to force people to be this functional, that job is for the rest of us as inidividuals to identify and feel compelled to do something about it, not turn to the government to fix things...)

[mr.72]

There greed... upraising...that's rite a FAT tax... 20% BMI ... twinky eater... don't use IV drugs... they crach head wants his fix...there is the consequences

The grammar, spelling, etc. errors notwithstanding, I think you are suggesting that anyone with a 20% BODY FAT (BMI is not a percentage, it's an index, and 20 is a very low BMI) has to pay some kind of tax. Good luck finding support for more taxes. And if you mean "cracK heads", they are not typically IV drug users. Crack is smoked.

But back to the point, if someone wants to pay for their own health care, their own energy, their own food, their own scooter, whatever, then who are you to tell them they can't eat what they want and be fat? In fact I kind of think if people want to take the risk to have unprotected sex or shoot up drugs and get AIDS then they have every right to do that as well. They know the risks. How about we just stop paying for their health care with tax money? Less taxes, less of the government controlling our lives, less of all of it. If you want to eat too much and don't exercise, and you can afford to pay your own medical bills and still can make a living even though you are fat, then so be it. You want to engage in high-risk lifestyle choices of any kind, as long as you take full financial responsibility for your choices then so be it. The problem is once you begin to reach into MY pocket to pay for it, you invite me to tell you how to live your life. We allow the government to do the reaching into our pocket, and we empower the government then to tell us all how to live our lives as a result. Once you give them the money to do this, then they will use that money to tell YOU how to live.

How long is it going to be before guns and ammo are outlawed because of accidental shootings that burden our health care costs? Right after they outlaw cars, motorcycles, you name it. Once you give the government the authority to make laws governing our lifestyle choices based on health care costs, then there is no limit to what they will try and control.

[Purplehood]

I just fired-off a short e-mail to Senator Cornyn and asked him not to let any form of this healthcare bill be approved as it usurps the balance of power between Congress, the Judiciary and the Executive Branch (and puts it squarely in the Executive).