Question: .40 = .45?

[CC Italian]

Here is my 2 cents.

.40- Better penatration, usually holds more rounds and is cheaper to shoot

.45 bigger, slower but more energy.

Like everyone says both are more then up to the task for personal protection. I think the .45 gets the edge by a little but I do like having more rounds in the .40. You can't go wrong with either.

[gigag04]

9mm is what I carry and I can make 4" patterns at 15 yards all day long.

Good shooting!


But...can you do it under stress with an elevated SNS dump, and adrenaline flowing through your veins?

Doubtful :)

That's my answer to shot placement > caliber. While it is true, even the bust shooters in the world will suffer a MUCH wider pattern under combat stress.

[The Annoyed Man]

My opinion? No handgun is powerful enough to guarantee a one shot stop irregardless of POI. Any handgun is capable of a one shot stop considering good POI.

You "win" the thread. I prefer to carry .45 ACP most of the time because I shoot the round well enough and I'm familiar with it. But I never felt underarmed with a .40, and I guess I'd be fine with a 9mm. I feel fine carrying a .38 Special, and I have carried a .380, although have less faith in it. But like Pete says, I've seen more people shot dead with .22 long rifle than any other caliber. However, unless that bullet rattles around in their brain or ruptures an aorta, incapacitation with a .22 is likely to take a long time — time which your opponent can use for judicious application of a crowbar upside your head. My guess is that heavier calibers tend to reduce that likelihood enough to make it worth the effort to carry the biggest round you're comfortable shooting. That said, carry a rifle if you want one-shot stops.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Somebody on the forum says "I carry a .45 because they don't make a .46"

SIA

[mctowalot]

Well, it wasn't EXACTLY centered, but I investigated a shooting where the male victim was shot point blank in the right nipple with a 200 gr. lead SWC round. He was hurting, but wasn't even bleeding. He could have gotten up and gone home if he'd wanted to.

Wow. Just reading that made my right nipple hurt!
Thanks to everyone for responding. I never heard of anyone getting up after taking a load of buckshot center mass, your points are well taken. I suppose I should research what the options are in .40 ammo and go with that. Time to go back and read AustinRealtor's water jug test post and see what had the best "smush factor". You guys (and ladies) are great.

[edmart001]

Somebody really smart once said: "There just ain't no magic bullet" and "There ain't no substitute for the will to fight"

My eldest son, who pulled two combat tours in Iraq with the US Army's 3rd Infantry Division, once saw an insurgent hit three times COM with a .50 machine gun - his entire torso was "just pink mist". Although already dead but just didn't know it yet, said insurgent still arm-crawled to his RPG and got an aimed shot off at a Bradley. Luckily, the RPG round bounced off the Bradley and the Bradley's gunner swiveled his 20mm and swept the entire area, which sent the insurgent on to his final rest.

The .50 MaDuce has been a mainstay battle weapon for our infantry forces since WWII and it doesn't even fire one-shot-stop magic bullets. If it don't, no handgun will. My opinion is that one should carry what one shoots well and one should practice until confident that even on the worst day, one will still shoot well. Several well placed hits from an appropriate personal defense 9mm or .38 round will be much better than several misses from anything. If you can shoot something heavier just as well and feel more comfortable with that, than by all means "carry on". But whatever you shoot, don't discount the will to fight from your adversary and keep fighting until you are sure the fight is over.

[saj111]

i'm linking a forum discussion i found on this forum a couple of years ago. it is a long discussion by a medical examiner in a big city. he discusses what he's seen over a number of years. what it comes down to is: seen one shot from a 22 kill and many from a 45 not kill but in the end he says from what he's seen he will only carry a 45. well worth a look. bookmark it so you can read it in multiple sittings.
http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Warning profanity

[CompVest]

i'm linking a forum discussion i found on this forum a couple of years ago. it is a long discussion by a medical examiner in a big city. he discusses what he's seen over a number of years. what it comes down to is: seen one shot from a 22 kill and many from a 45 not kill but in the end he says from what he's seen he will only carry a 45. well worth a look. bookmark it so you can read it in multiple sittings.
http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does this need a profanity warning?

[davidtx]

i'm linking a forum discussion i found on this forum a couple of years ago. it is a long discussion by a medical examiner in a big city. he discusses what he's seen over a number of years. what it comes down to is: seen one shot from a 22 kill and many from a 45 not kill but in the end he says from what he's seen he will only carry a 45. well worth a look. bookmark it so you can read it in multiple sittings.
http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You weren't kidding about multiple sittings. This appears to be a digest of a series of posts. Its a very interesting point of view. He sure doesn't think much of ballistic gelatin as an accurate model of the body.

[longtooth]

I read a lot of it & on warning needed.

Good read. Some humor even in the demise of the BGs.

[OldCannon]

Ah, caliber wars...break out the popcorn, people

Well, it's all about tradeoffs, right? I shoot 9mm, .40, .45ACP, and even .45 Colt (/thumps chest in manly style), even 2 rounds of .410 buckshot in a Bond Arms derringer (/thumps chest harder)

If you are concealed carry, it's often about size and weight. Let's say your pistol (and spare mag) is X size and Y loaded weight, and that you wish to neither increase the size nor the weight of what you are carrying. Let's now say that the weapon you are carrying is a .45ACP compact with 6 rounds. If it was a .40S&W, you could probably carry about 9 rounds at same size and weight. If it was 9mm, you could probably carry 12 rounds at the same size and weight.

Now I know that there will be others that will say, "My ThunderBoomer 2000 carries X rounds of Y and weighs no more than <insert gun/caliber they want to beat up on>," but that's not the point. The point is to carry what you can reliably shoot AND reload under stressful situations. For some people, that's a 9mm, for others it's a .45 ACP. Round for round, a 9mm will be lighter to carry than a .40S&W, and a .40S&W lighter than a .45.

Always, however, carry a spare mag. In a real situation, you will fire until the threat is over. How many rounds you need could be one. It _could_ be 100. You don't really know.

For the record, I generally carry .40S&W

[The Annoyed Man]

i'm linking a forum discussion i found on this forum a couple of years ago. it is a long discussion by a medical examiner in a big city. he discusses what he's seen over a number of years. what it comes down to is: seen one shot from a 22 kill and many from a 45 not kill but in the end he says from what he's seen he will only carry a 45. well worth a look. bookmark it so you can read it in multiple sittings.
http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quoting your article:

Steven Camp has done some of this and I'll have to re-read his and your postings. Pretty much he recommends 158-grain LSWCHP +P .38 special from a 1 7/8" snub revolver (Remington, Federal or Winchester) but the pages seem a bit dated. They are however EXCELLENT, easy to read and well illustrated. I highly recommend reading them. Hopefully they'll be updated soon.

Is that our Mr. Camp?

[OldCannon]

I almost forgot to mention -- you might want to consider a .357SIG caliber. Basically it's a VERY hot 9mm bullet backed by a necked-down .40S&W (10mm) casing. If you can deal with the recoil (often a strong muzzle flip, but not too bad), you may find that preferable to a .40S&W. And a .357SIG has NO penetration issues

[Sidro]

Love my xd-357sig, just wish they would come out with a sc model.

[PeteCamp]

And a .357SIG has NO penetration issues

I love the .357SIG, but this is not exactly true. Any round capable of stopping a fight can overpenetrate. Some more so than others. In fact, many agencies use the .357 precisely because it has the ability to penetrate things. Chicago Transit Police uses it because it is the only round capable of penetrating glass and seat cushions on subway cars. Texas DPS had an incident where .45ACP failed to penetrate the cab of an 18 wheeler while the .357 blew through and stopped the actor. It should remind us all to pay attention to the 4th rule of gun safety.