Army Corps of Engineers

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couzin
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by couzin »

4copas wrote:COE property around lakes are usually measured by elevation above or below sea level. This elevation line would create the property line.
Sorry - this is incorrect. The fee property boundary (the land actually owned by the US Government (USACE in this case)) varies from lake to lake and/or wildlife management area. It was largely dependent on what the future plans for the reservoir might have been (like a pool raise), if additional land was needed to flood in the event of high water, when and where the reservoir was built, or, like Jim Chapman lake/Cooper dam, not enough land was available to satisfy a court challenge to the environmental impact statement in order to mitigate the loss of habitat and the White Oak Creek Mitigation Area was purchased in fee simple (excepting a portion that was already part of Lake Wright Patman). As far as land above the pool elevation, as said, it varies. For instance, Lake Wright Patman has a lot of land (some 45,000 acres) outside the pool elevation(s) (approximately 20,000 acres in size at the conservation or normal pool level), but Lake Lewisville has only some 28,000 acres (mostly in the upper end) above the normal pool (23,000 acre). Lewisville has some private property very close to the lake but still outside (above) the flood pool (there is a normal pool and a flood pool which is the height of the spillway with some additional land above that elevation (usually) as 'freeboard'. The property boundary on most fee owned lakes/reservoirs typically follows old property lines so that it kinda zig zags across the landscape. However - there were exceptions where the former land owner did not want to sell all the land (or USACE was trying to trim costs) and the USACE boundary follows a contour (elevation) across the land (Lake Sam Rayburn has a lot of this (Lake Sam was constructed mostly on US Forest Service lands so little land was bought from land owners)). Some land owners in East Texas for some of the earlier lakes constructed (1940s and 1950s) were happy to sell their unproductive bottom land and burnt out cotton fields so the government actually got more land than was needed. There are also some parcels on USACE reservoirs where the land owner was willing to sell the right to flood the land to the USACE and kept title simple to the land but is prohibited from building on it. Fee owned property boundaries are always marked, however, sometimes they are not so clear and on a lot of reservoirs just the trees were blazed. Corners are usually marked with a stake and the USACE property boundary language. Also marked (usually) is the high pool (flood) elevation - same deal, usually a tree blaze but mostly a stake with sign. True - the managing operations office for a specific lake might get troubled if an adjacent land owner starts cutting grass (or trees) on USACE fee lands or below the flood pool boundary. There are permits to allow some of this cutting by adjacent landowners - even taking down of some brush and trees. A person just needs to go to the lake managing office and ask.

Probably a lot more info than you wanted...
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by RPB »

What gets me is when I want to fish UPstream/down river of their property/lake .... I'd have to get out of my boat in the San Gabriel River (for example) walk both shores of the San Gabriel River (the land might be/probably is tresspassing on someone else's private property) to find the markers on each bank The U.S Boundary Line, the corners of which are marked with concrete markers, defines the limits of this public land. The boundary markers are generally topped with a brass cap, which is usually about 4 inches above ground level. , so I'd know how far in the river I can go legally in Brazos River Authourity controlled river, before entering that water controlled by the USACE at Stillhouse lake, Granger Lake, Lake Georgetown, Waco lakes, Lake Whitney (upstream, not at the State Park which is on USACE Land, so we can't carry on our own State Park even though Texas passed laws saying we can carry in State Parks... ... etc etc etc.

Dude .... the weeds grass and brush on both banks is over 4 inches tall ... Do I gotta mow first? I need to bring a mower on my kayak? Then, after trespassing on other's properties (Not USACE property, but those abutting it) and finding the marker on each bank, I gotta carry a "do not cross" ribbon tape to stretch across the river?????? What if I accidently mow some private property owners place looking for the USACE markers? What if I get out of m kayak and start mowing and hear banjo music from deliverance or meet some really irritated rabid animal/feral hog/wild boar who wants me to squeel like a pig? :lol:

Will the USACE indemnify me while I'm out trespassing on other people's property looking for their markers so I can string a "do not cross" line across the river?
But for ... But for their regulation, I'd have stayed in my boat and not gone onto the shore trespassing looking for markers 4 inches tall. (Federal Tort Claims are a nightmare, I am sure that no one is indemnified)

Can I hang trotline hooks on my "do not cross" ribbon if the fish promise to swim to MY side instead of the USACE side of the ribbon in the water?


Seriously ...If I have a 15 foot kayak, can the gun be on one end of the kayak in Brazos River Authority controlled waters, but maybe 7 feet of the kayak and me without the gun on their side of the "do not cross" ribbon to get my fish unhooked? Or .... do I need to put the gun in a floating waterproof ice chest and anchor it in the river on the Texas side, paddle to the USACE side to get my fish, and then paddle back to TEXAS to get my gun back in the boat?


Conflict of laws, Texas vs the US confuses an average person who might accidently carry a concealed handgun in their car under Motorist Protection Act, and try to park in the Whitney State Park parking lot and break federal laws.
Last edited by RPB on Thu May 13, 2010 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by 4copas »

Sorry - this is incorrect. The fee property boundary (the land actually owned by the US Government (USACE in this case)) varies from lake to lake and/or wildlife management area. It was largely dependent on what the future plans for the reservoir might have been (like a pool raise), if additional land was needed to flood in the event of high water, when and where the reservoir was built, or, like Jim Chapman lake/Cooper dam, not enough land was available to satisfy a court challenge to the environmental impact statement in order to mitigate the loss of habitat and the White Oak Creek Mitigation Area was purchased in fee simple (excepting a portion that was already part of Lake Wright Patman). As far as land above the pool elevation, as said, it varies. For instance, Lake Wright Patman has a lot of land (some 45,000 acres) outside the pool elevation(s) (approximately 20,000 acres in size at the conservation or normal pool level), but Lake Lewisville has only some 28,000 acres (mostly in the upper end) above the normal pool (23,000 acre). Lewisville has some private property very close to the lake but still outside (above) the flood pool (there is a normal pool and a flood pool which is the height of the spillway with some additional land above that elevation (usually) as 'freeboard'. The property boundary on most fee owned lakes/reservoirs typically follows old property lines so that it kinda zig zags across the landscape. However - there were exceptions where the former land owner did not want to sell all the land (or USACE was trying to trim costs) and the USACE boundary follows a contour (elevation) across the land (Lake Sam Rayburn has a lot of this (Lake Sam was constructed mostly on US Forest Service lands so little land was bought from land owners)). Some land owners in East Texas for some of the earlier lakes constructed (1940s and 1950s) were happy to sell their unproductive bottom land and burnt out cotton fields so the government actually got more land than was needed. There are also some parcels on USACE reservoirs where the land owner was willing to sell the right to flood the land to the USACE and kept title simple to the land but is prohibited from building on it. Fee owned property boundaries are always marked, however, sometimes they are not so clear and on a lot of reservoirs just the trees were blazed. Corners are usually marked with a stake and the USACE property boundary language. Also marked (usually) is the high pool (flood) elevation - same deal, usually a tree blaze but mostly a stake with sign. True - the managing operations office for a specific lake might get troubled if an adjacent land owner starts cutting grass (or trees) on USACE fee lands or below the flood pool boundary. There are permits to allow some of this cutting by adjacent landowners - even taking down of some brush and trees. A person just needs to go to the lake managing office and ask.
Very good explaination, I stand corrected. I was stating one of the the ansewers my family got from the COE people we dealt with growing up, as our property backed up to the lake.

RPB, I feel your frustration with the confusion. Although I don't live in the area anymore, I have places I like to go back to and fish or just take a nice hike with the family and dog. I feel like I have the right to CC when out doing this. Maybe the law will get fixed so we don't have to worry about breaking it.
Last edited by 4copas on Thu May 13, 2010 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by RPB »

I'm hoping so ... Alice also forwarded some of my stuff, observations etc to NRA... (Glad they got it :mrgreen: Sometimes I feel like a "voice crying in the wilderness" )

If we can get USCAE PARKING LOTS fixed, and waters fixed, and STATE PARKS fixed, and County Parks fixed, and CITY PARKS fixed (and their parking lots) which are on USACE property, then more people would visit there in all States ... it affects interstate Commerce, vacationers at their recreation areas, (like National Parks etc) so US Congress has authority to do "something" even if certain procedures must be followed to change army regulations ... .... perhaps it will even be legal some day to leave your gun in the car under the Motorist Protection Act at a post office parking lot so I can buy stamps there, since it's closer than the H.E.B. where I usually have to go for stamps.
:txflag:

I feel sorry for anyone carrying in their car going to a city park, believing they are legal under Motorist Protection Act at a city park leased from the USACE like near Georgetown ... I fear they might end up in a cell next to the Fort Hood Shooter who carried illegally on US Army propery too ... "But we were just taking our kids to play on the playground at our city park" :banghead: :lol::

Yep, it needs fixin'
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by 4copas »

RPB, I here ya dude. We have land now that backs up to COE property. I leave my property CC'ing to go put my toes in the water, and legally have to disarm at the COE line. IT'S CRAZY. Charles, thanks for your efforts and best wishes with your meetings.
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by RPB »

It is bigger than "just" a Texas issue ... Other States need to get involved and be aware.

I tried e-mailing every States' Senators, most replied they aren't interested in what I have to say if I don't reside in their State and vote there.... the others just replied that they want to stop the "gun show loophole". :grumble

I really pity the people in open carry only states, they are even more likely to be trapped by the conflict of laws accidently going too far in the river into a USACE lake "boundary" even though it still looks like a narrow river at that point ... or parking in a city/county/state park parking lot etc etc and some park ranger arresting them when they thought they were legally carrying under their State's laws.


Yes, Thank you Charles :thumbs2:
Last edited by RPB on Fri May 14, 2010 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by chabouk »

Good luck getting anyone from CoE to give you a definitive answer about their boundaries. They tend to claim stuff that's not rightly theirs, as do the abutting property owners. (Lots of those bottoms-dwelling folks go back generations on the same land, and are still holding grudges about eminent domain; good luck hunting on some of that "public" land!)
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by RPB »

Comparison ; USACE and Post Office

I was just thinking about my earlier statement ...
RE: Going to HEB to buy stamps instead of the Post office; I buy Stamps at HEB, I'm expecting a UPS package and need to send a package by FEDEX later, they allow me in their places of business here.

The Post Office is considering not delivering mail on Saturdays because they are losing money. Then they complain that they don't have enough much income and blame it on people using E-mail, Fedex and UPS .... I only mail one bill a month now, and considering using an auto-pay for it now.... Don't they realize they have forced people to unwillingly boycott them by not allowing them in their place of business?

The same goes for USACE "public recreational properties", some charge an admission fee, none allow concealed loaded weapons on their property, including parking lots ... don't they realize they have forced people to unwillingly boycott them by not allowing them in their place of business?

When I visit people in other States, (or even here) I first need to check and see who owns the city/County park before I decide to fish there ... and if I'm not allowed there, they can't get my business. I won FIRST PLACE in a fishing tournament in Lousiana, but there are fishing tournaments in Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, Florida, and other places in which I can't participate because they are held on USCAE property.(Lake Whitney, Granger Lake, Stillhouse Hollow, Wed night Georgetown Lake Tournament ... etc etc etc all USACE lakes) ... don't they realize they have forced people to unwillingly boycott them by not allowing them in their place of business?

JUST ... Don't ask me (taxpayers) to "bail you out" for your decision to force me (citizens and taxpayers) to boycott you so you have less income.

I can understand any business going bankrupt if they keep the doors locked too much and don't let enough customers in ... but keeping customers away knowingly and willingly just shows a lack of good business sense. As I said, this affects Interstate Commerce, and if they want to participate in Economic Recovery, they should fix it and stop forcing numerous people to UNWILLINGLY boycott them by not allowing them to use the public properties and give them their business (money for admission/campin/boat ramp usage fees etc or go in their business to ship packages )..

(Two of my cousins and a good freind are retired from the Post Office and dislike me pointing out good and bad business sense eg, businesses require customers to stay in business, locking a lot of customers out is not good business sense ... doesn't take a 150 I.Q. to figure than one out.)
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by couzin »

RPB wrote:Will the USACE indemnify me while I'm out trespassing on other people's property looking for their markers so I can string a "do not cross" line across the river?
Seriously RPB - the multiple fonts and colors make it hard to read your posts. Anyway - if you are really concerned about where you are on the river and do not want to venture onto USACE fee property carrying a weapon, then use the maps available on the USACE district websites, the maps available on Google, or the ones in a good quality GPS (the ones that are 1:24000 quadrangle capable are best) to get an 'idea' of where you are and just give plenty of lee to the approximate boundary. There is no "bright line" boundary - but there are usually clues, like boundary roads and occasionally signage, etc.

But I digress from the real issue - as far as the carrying on USACE lands - it comes down to what your willingness to take the risk is. I have to say - I went into some very back country areas located on different Federally owned lands over the past 20 years - I always had a firearm with me. You could simply say - I was willing to take the heat from the Feds and damage to my career, than risk the alternative.
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by oran214 »

Is it true that you can have a handgun in your car on ACOE property under the Motorist Protection Act, but not with a texas CHL? Thanks.
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by RPB »

oran214 wrote:Is it true that you can have a handgun in your car on ACOE property under the Motorist Protection Act, but not with a texas CHL? Thanks.
False, you can NOT have a loaded handgun in your car on USACE property legally period. Any firearm must be transported UNLOADED if going to go to a shooting range/hunting etc..
I specifically asked this in an E-Mail asking about parking at a park's parking lot on Lake Georgetown

(Imagine the USACE property is like a foreign embassy inside the USA, or a US Embassy inside of a foreign country ... like the Chinese Embassy in the USA is like "Chinese soil" diplomatic immunity and all that .... the US laws are non-applicable there, or whatever)

If you are on USACE property (their parking lot is their property) where loaded handguns are prohibited ... it doesn't matter what any state/city/county law says. You may NOT have a loaded concealed weapon inside your car on USCAE Property, regardless of what the Texas Motorist Protection Act says.



Title 36 regulations
(36 C.F.R., Chapter III, Part 327, Rules and Regulations Governing Public Use
of COE Water Resources Development Projects). 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)
prohibits the possession of loaded firearms or ammunition on lands and waters administered
by the Corps unless one of the exceptions in 36 C.F.R. §327.13(a)(1)-(4) applies.
The full text of 36 C.F.R. can be viewed on the NRM Gateway


**************
3. 36 C.F.R. § 327.13 remains in full force and effect. It will continue to
prohibit loaded concealed weapons on Corps properties
regardless of the new
law and notwithstanding any contrary provisions of State law. It remains
Corps policy that we will not honor State-issued concealed weapon permits on our facilities
and that District Commanders do not have discretion under 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)(4) to
create blanket exceptions to this policy. A change of this nature to Corps regulations in
36 C.F.R. Part 327 would require formal rulemaking procedures under the Administrative Procedures Act (5
U.S.C. §§ 551-706).
****************

4. It is incumbent upon us to communicate and reinforce our firearms
regulation with our visitors and partners, which may include posting park
entrances with "No Firearms" signs IAW the Corps sign manual (EP 310-1-6a and EP 310-1-6b)
and taking other actions deemed necessary by Operations Project Managers as coordinated
appropriately with other Corps elements. Information related to this matter will also be
posted for public awareness on the NRM Gateway.

==================

exceptions in 36 C.F.R. §327.13(a)(1)-(4) can be found here http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title36/36 ... .1.14.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

§ 327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks.
(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:

(1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;

(2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under §327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;

(3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or

(4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.

(b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.

===================

TITLE 36 - PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY

CHAPTER III - CORPS OF ENGINEERS, DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY

PART 327 - RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING PUBLIC USE OF WATER RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS ADMINISTERED BY THE CHIEF OF ENGINEERS

327.8 - Hunting, fishing, and trapping.

(a) Hunting is permitted except in areas and during periods where prohibited by the District Commander.

(b) Trapping is permitted except in areas and during periods where prohibited by the District Commander.

(c) Fishing is permitted except in swimming areas, on boat ramps or other areas designated by the District Commander.

(d) Additional restrictions pertaining to these activities may be established by the District Commander.

(e) All applicable Federal, State and local laws regulating these activities apply on project lands and waters, and shall be regulated by authorized enforcement officials as prescribed in 327.26.

(e) is so they can enforce TEXAS laws in addition to their own, check if you have no fishing/hunting license, enforce TPWD's size/bag limits on fish and game, they can ask for your ID and fishing/hunting licenses (and when you show your CHL with your ID to the peace officer park ranger like Texas law requires [although with no penalty for failing to do it now]... arrest you for having a loaded gun on their property)
Last edited by RPB on Fri May 14, 2010 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

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RPB wrote:
oran214 wrote:Is it true that you can have a handgun in your car on ACOE property under the Motorist Protection Act, but not with a texas CHL? Thanks.
False, you can NOT have a loaded handgun in your car on USACE property legally period. Any firearm must be transported UNLOADED if going to go to a shooting range/hunting etc..
I specifically asked this in an E-Mail asking about parking at a park's parking lot on Lake Georgetown

(Imagine the USACE property is like a foreign embassy inside the USA, or a US Embassy inside of a foreign country ... like the Chinese Embassy in the USA is like "Chinese soil" diplomatic immunity and all that .... the US laws are non-applicable there, or whatever)

If you are on USACE property (their parking lot is their property) where loaded handguns are prohibited ... it doesn't matter what any state/city/county law says. You may NOT have a loaded concealed weapon inside your car on USCAE Property, regardless of what the Texas Motorist Protection Act says.

Ouch! You make it abundantly clear that public property within Texas may not belong to Texas. Good analogy about the foreign embassy property in the U.S. actually is treated like foreign territory, and not to be encroached upon.

I have an idea! Why doesn't Texas simply offer to "purchase" ALL COE property within the confines of the State? Or barring that, offer COE to deed the Texas property back to the State of Texas in lieu of maintaining/upgrading/improving said property that resides within the State of Texas? (another way of saying: "getting back what belongs to us?")
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by RPB »

joe817 wrote: I have an idea! Why doesn't Texas simply offer to "purchase" ALL COE property within the confines of the State? Or barring that, offer COE to deed the Texas property back to the State of Texas in lieu of maintaining/upgrading/improving said property that resides within the State of Texas? (another way of saying: "getting back what belongs to us?")
:thumbs2:
Wait .... that makes perfectly good sense ... indicating that you will never have a career in politics. :headscratch

Good idea I wish they would. But alternatively, they could just amend all federal regs to comply with State Laws ... after all, any powers not given to the Feds were reserved to the States anyway ... leastways thats what the schoolmarm told me once.
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

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Forgive me...I don't know what came over me. "Logic, good idea and economically feasible" should not be used in political context.
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Re: Army Corps of Engineers

Post by RPB »

Just a list of a few stats and spots affected:

Just a couple in Galveston District I wish I could go to ...

THIS LOOKS NEAT..
WALLISVILLE
http://www.swg.usace.army.mil/Wallis/Recreation.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Addicks and Barker reservoirs (COUNTY + CITY Parks... City of Houston, Harris County Precinct 3, and Fort Bend County ... owned by USACE)
http://www.swg.usace.army.mil/Addicks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.swg.usace.army.mil/Addicks/#recreation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


USACOE Lakes- Fort Worth District (Only)

http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/cgi-bi ... Recreation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Aquilla Lake
Bardwell Lake
Belton Lake http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/visito ... Id=M201330" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Benbrook Lake
Canyon Lake
Jim Chapman Lake/Cooper Dam
Lake Georgetown
Granger Lake
Grapevine Lake
Hords Creek Lake
Joe Pool Lake
Lake O' The Pines
Lavon Lake
Lewisville Lake
Navarro Mills Lake
Proctor Lake
Ray Roberts Lake
Sam Rayburn Lake
Somerville Lake
Stillhouse Hollow Lake
Town Bluff/B.A. Steinhagen Lake
Waco Lake
Whitney Lake
Wright Patman Lake


Recreation
82.3 million visitors annually (Interstate Commerce)
28,112 campsites (Campsites where we aren't allowed)
11,400 miles of lake shoreline (Bank fishing spots I can't go)
1,172 recreation sites (Places I can't take the kids)
1,174 boat ramps

(1,174 Boat ramps I'm not allowed to use ... I don't know how many forbidden Parking Lots)

90 flood damage reduction lakes/reservoirs
25 in Fort Worth District
3 in Galveston District

25 in Little Rock District
37 in Tulsa District
33.22 million acre-feet of flood storage at Corps lakes
(33.22 MILLION acre feet of water I'm not allowed to fish on, even though Texas Parks and Wildlife, and other STATES Stocks those water bodies with money from my fishing license fees, pay Game Wardens to patrol with my Taxes/fees , etc.)
---------------------------------------------------------------

North Texas/Oklahoma USACOE

Tulsa District Lakes

Arcadia Lake
Birch Lake
Broken Bow Lake
Canton Lake
Chouteau Lock and Dam
Copan Lake
Council Grove Lake
El Dorado Lake
Elk City Lake
Eufaula Lake
Fall River Lake
Fort Gibson Lake
Fort Supply Lake
Great Salt Plains Lake
Heyburn Lake
Hugo Lake
Hulah Lake
John Redmond Reservoir
Kaw Lake
Keystone Lake
Lake Texoma
Marion Reservoir
Newt Graham Lock and Dam
Oologah Lake
Optima Lake
Pat Mayse Lake
Pearson-Skubitz Big Hill Lake
Pine Creek Lake
Robert S. Kerr Lock and Dam
Sardis Lake
Skiatook Lake
Tenkiller Lake
Toronto Lake
Truscott Lake
Waurika Lake
W.D. Mayo Lock and Dam
Webbers Falls Lock and Dam
Wister Lake


The list goes on Nationwide.
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