Army Corps of Engineers

[Charles L. Cotton]

I'm taking a break from an NRA meeting and I need some information fast. I don't have time to do a search.

There is a thread that contains a letter from someone with the Army Crops of Engineers explaining that the National Parks carry legislation does not apply to land under their control. I need that for my meeting; can someone point me to that thread?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be lazy, I just don't have time to search. I'll check in later.

Thanks,
Chas.

[PetrucciFan]

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 30#p389553

Here is an email that went out to USACE ranger personnel very recently, from a head USACE

ranger guy to inform them of this fact.

Quote:
Subject: New Federal Law Pertaining To Firearms on National Park/National
Wildlife Service Lands Is Not Applicable at USACE Projects and Facilities

All -- a new law regarding firearms on some specific federal properties takes effect next
week. This is not new information for us, and we have been reviewing it for quite a while.
Counsel has been fully engaged. We offer the following guidance:

1. Section 512 of the Credit Card Act of 2009 (Public Law 111-024) pertains
to possession of firearms and allows an individual to possess an assembled or
functional firearm in any unit of the National Park Service or National
Wildlife Refuge System provided that the individual is not otherwise
prohibited by law from possessing the firearm and the possession is in
compliance with the law of the State in which the National Park/Refuge is
located. This law becomes effective on 22 February 2010 on property under
the jurisdiction of the National Park Service or the U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Service.

2. Public Law 111-024 does not apply to Corps projects or facilities. The
passage of this new law does not affect application of Title 36 regulations
(36 C.F.R., Chapter III, Part 327, Rules and Regulations Governing Public Use
of COE Water Resources Development Projects). 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)
prohibits the possession of loaded firearms or ammunition on lands and waters administered
by the Corps unless one of the exceptions in 36 C.F.R. §327.13(a)(1)-(4) applies. The full text of 36 C.F.R. can be viewed on the NRM Gateway at: http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/emp...fs/title36.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.


**************
3. 36 C.F.R. § 327.13 remains in full force and effect. It will continue to
prohibit loaded concealed weapons on Corps properties regardless of the new
law and notwithstanding any contrary provisions of State law. It remains
Corps policy that we will not honor State-issued concealed weapon permits on our facilities
and that District Commanders do not have discretion under 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)(4) to
create blanket exceptions to this policy. A change of this nature to Corps regulations in
36 C.F.R. Part 327 would require formal rulemaking procedures under the Administrative Procedures Act (5
U.S.C. §§ 551-706).
****************

4. It is incumbent upon us to communicate and reinforce our firearms
regulation with our visitors and partners, which may include posting park
entrances with "No Firearms" signs IAW the Corps sign manual (EP 310-1-6a and EP 310-1-6b)
and taking other actions deemed necessary by Operations Project Managers as coordinated
appropriately with other Corps elements. Information related to this matter will also be
posted for public awareness on the NRM Gateway.

5. HQUSACE POCs for this matter are Stephen Austin, Natural Resources
Manager, Operations (for Visitor Assistance policy and program administration
information), 202-761-4489, stephen.b.austin@usace.army.mil; and Milt Boyd, Assistant Counsel, Office of Chief Counsel (for regulatory questions on federal lands) at 202-761-8546, Milton.W.Boyd@usace.army.mil.

Provided for your attention and appropriate action.

Mike

Michael G. Ensch, SES
Chief, Operations & Regulatory CoP
and Lakes & Rivers Division RIT
HQUSACE, CECW-LRD
441 G St, NW Rm 3E92
Washington, DC 20314

Work (202) 761-1983
Cell (703) 386-6102

[PetrucciFan]

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 30#p389553

[Humanphibian]

is this what you were after??

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... y&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[shortysboy09]

Best I can find Charles...

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... Park+carry

[SQLGeek]

Direct link to the post with the letter:

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 53#p389553" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Humanphibian]

lol...ask and Ye shall receive

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

lol...ask and Ye shall receive

LOL I was reading the time stamps on the above posts...ya'll are good!

[couzin]

Mr. Cotton - I would love to hear the condensed version of your discussion with NRA regarding the USACE policy.

[couzin]

BTW - as a former USACE'er - I know both Stephen Austin and Mike Ensch. They are both reasoned individuals.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Thanks folks.

Chas.

[The Annoyed Man]

I am interested to know what constitutes COE land. About 3 weeks ago, I spent part of a Saturday doing a service project with my AMBUCS club at a pretty large Southlake municipal park which is located on the shore of Grapevine Lake. I don't recall any particular signage at the gate, but I would have probably ignored it anyway. Concealed is concealed, and some of these parks attract unsavory people some times. Although it seemed to be a nice enough park, it isn't a place I'm likely to hang out at anyway, and I was there only for that service project. I pocket carried my P3AT because that was the easiest pistol to conceal that I own, just in case this was an issue. I balanced the risk of getting caught if it were illegal, against the risk of not having a pistol when I needed one, and carrying one seemed like a reasonable risk to take.

So how far back from the edge of the water is the COE land? Or, is that even standardized? At the entrance to the park land itself, I was probably a 1/2 mile or more back from the lake. At the gate, I was probably a couple of hundred yards from the water. The service project I was on was probably 75 yards from the water. So, for Grapevine Lake (and other lakes), does "COE land" mean just the shoreline, or is it defined as being some distance back from the water's edge? How does one find out?

[PUCKER]

TAM - I can't give you an exact cite (I believe it's a certain perimeter distance of _ feet) - but I can give you some info that may help - I've got a buddy that lives on the shores of Lewisville Lake (actually he lives on the shores of the old Lake Dallas). It's a Corps lake. His property backs up the the Corps "line/boundry" and I'd guesstimate the line to be about 100' from the water at normal pool elevation. The "line/boundry" is actually marked by short little "mini" fence-posts (I've seen other property marked with the typical brown short pipe fencing that the Corps uses). He and his neighbors mow their backyards along with the Corp property (down to the edge of the lake). They've been admonished by the Corps for doing so...but these folks aren't going to let tall grass impede their view/access to the lake as well as let the tall grass house critters...

[4copas]

COE property around lakes are usually measured by elevation above or below sea level. This elevation line would create the property line. I grew up on the north end of Lake Lewisville, and that's what Ive always been told. They are very picky about what you do on there side of the line.

[RPB]

I'm taking a break from an NRA meeting and I need some information fast. I don't have time to do a search.

There is a thread that contains a letter from someone with the Army Crops of Engineers explaining that the National Parks carry legislation does not apply to land under their control. I need that for my meeting; can someone point me to that thread?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be lazy, I just don't have time to search. I'll check in later.

Thanks,
Chas.

No "National Park" is on USCAE land, however the MEMO From the USCAE DOES state that the National Park law does NOT apply to USACE properties/Lakes/RECREATION AREAS..
also regards that in other parks (All State Parks, County/City Parks/lakes etc) which are ON USCAE land (leased etc ) in all States that the USCAE Regs forbidding loaded firearms apply REGARDLESS of CONTRARY STATE law.


You may carry in any Texas State Park UNLESS it is property owned by the US Army Corps of Engineers, which is LEASED to Texas Parks and Wildlife to be used as a State Park.

The MEMO is HERE -> http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/employ ... cfm?Id=789" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, in a nutshell, the Texas State Parks TPWD Stocks and manages which are "USACE Property" The USACE says we can NOT carry in, regardless of our State law saying we can. Same with places such as the San Gabriel River (Brazos River Authority) is OK, until you reach Lake Georgetown, and Granger Lake, at which at the boundaries of each (which are unknown exactly to the Corps, as they know "approximate" you must have someone meet you and taxi your concealed handgun around their property and meet you downstream, twice (once for each lake) before you can continue down river.

Also, you can't use Georgetown's CITY PARK, Blue Hole Park etc ... it sits on USCAE property.


3. 36 C.F.R. § 327.13 remains in full force and effect. It will continue to prohibit loaded concealed weapons on Corps properties regardless of the new law and notwithstanding any contrary provisions of State law.

It remains Corps policy that we will not honor State-issued concealed weapon permits on our facilities and that District Commanders do not have discretion under 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)(4) to create blanket exceptions to this policy. A change of this nature to Corps regulations in 36 C.F.R. Part 327 would require formal rulemaking procedures under the Administrative Procedures Act (5 U.S.C. §§ 551-706).
---------

Here is an email that went out to USACE ranger personnel very recently,
(Just before Feb 22, 2010) from a head USACE Ranger guy. ( Michael G. Ensch, SES )

Quote:
Subject: New Federal Law Pertaining To Firearms on National Park/National
Wildlife Service Lands Is Not Applicable at USACE Projects and Facilities

All -- a new law regarding firearms on some specific federal properties
takes effect next
week. This is not new information for us, and we have been reviewing it for
quite a while.
Counsel has been fully engaged. We offer the following guidance:

1. Section 512 of the Credit Card Act of 2009 (Public Law 111-024) pertains
to possession of firearms and allows an individual to possess an assembled
or
functional firearm in any unit of the National Park Service or National
Wildlife Refuge System provided that the individual is not otherwise
prohibited by law from possessing the firearm and the possession is in
compliance with the law of the State in which the National Park/Refuge is
located. This law becomes effective on 22 February 2010 on property under
the jurisdiction of the National Park Service or the U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Service.

2. Public Law 111-024 does not apply to Corps projects or facilities. The
passage of this new law does not affect application of Title 36 regulations
(36 C.F.R., Chapter III, Part 327, Rules and Regulations Governing Public
Use of COE Water Resources Development Projects). 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)
prohibits the possession of loaded firearms or ammunition on lands and
waters administered by the Corps unless one of the exceptions in 36 C.F.R.
§327.13(a)(1)-(4) applies. The full text of 36 C.F.R. can be viewed on the
NRM Gateway


**************
3. 36 C.F.R. § 327.13 remains in full force and effect. It will continue to
prohibit loaded concealed weapons on Corps properties regardless of the new
law and notwithstanding any contrary provisions of State law.

It remains Corps policy that we will not honor State-issued concealed weapon
permits on our facilities and that District Commanders do not have
discretion under 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)(4) to create blanket exceptions to
this policy. A change of this nature to Corps regulations in 36 C.F.R. Part
327 would require formal rulemaking procedures under the Administrative
Procedures Act (5 U.S.C. §§ 551-706).
****************

4. It is incumbent upon us to communicate and reinforce our firearms
regulation with our visitors and partners, which may include posting park
entrances with "No Firearms" signs IAW the Corps sign manual (EP 310-1-6a
and EP 310-1-6b) and taking other actions deemed necessary by Operations
Project Managers as coordinated appropriately with other Corps elements.
Information related to this matter will also be posted for public awareness
on the NRM Gateway.

5. HQUSACE POCs for this matter are Stephen Austin, Natural Resources
Manager, Operations (for Visitor Assistance policy and program
administration
information), 202-761-4489, stephen.b.austin@usace.army.mil; and Milt Boyd,
Assistant Counsel, Office of Chief Counsel (for regulatory questions on
federal lands) at 202-761-8546, Milton.W.Boyd@usace.army.mil.

Provided for your attention and appropriate action.

Mike

Michael G. Ensch, SES
Chief, Operations & Regulatory CoP
and Lakes & Rivers Division RIT
HQUSACE, CECW-LRD
441 G St, NW Rm 3E92
Washington, DC 20314

Work (202) 761-1983
Cell (703) 386-6102
--------------



Here from Texas Parks and Wildlife Law Enforcement Director ...

It is indeed illegal to carry a firearm in a state park leased by TPWD from the COE, as per federal laws. State parks NOT on COE properties are legal for concealed carry.

I wasn't here yesterday, or Idda replied sooner.
--------------------------------------------------------

BOUNDARIES

The boundaries are posted for some lake / property maps, but are "approximate" and there is usually no signage.

Example, Grapevine boundaries are listed here in a general sort of way if you don't accidently step over the invisible line you could find the little markers ... http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/grapev ... /index.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you E-mail the region for the property you want to check out, they'll e-mail you a map with "approximate" boundaries.

(Personally I find this vague ambiguous and how can I obey when I want to fish the river they do NOT own but is regulated by a river authority which allows us to carry, but which river connects two USACE properties ... except by NOT going there since no one seems to know the boundaries.... it's like an "approximate speed limit?" (We won't tell you what it is, but you may be arrested for it?)
------------

We can't even legally park with a concealed handgun in the car in the parking lots, perfectly legal under the Texas Motorist Protection act, at the City Park in Georgetown and fish there. (PARKING LOTS ARE USCAE PROPERTY... I have to find parking off the COE property, and leave my gun in the car, and walk even farther, (not easy for us elderly disabled persons) to go fishing.... I should report them under ADA (Americans With Disabilities Act)
---

(By the way, if you are visiting a USCAE property please do NOT look under the leaves at those bushes just before the front entrance to the parking lot/USCAE property/lake/recreation area ... I expect my loaded gun to be right where I left it so I can pick it up when I leave .... Sometimes there is no Guard at the gate to leave it with .... (KIDDING !!!)