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Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:14 pm
by ddstuder
The Annoyed Man wrote:I have a few thoughts......
Being active in the leadership of my church's recovery ministry has taught me some things about forgiveness and making amends.
1. You extend forgiveness because, in the long run, holding onto the unforgiveness hurts you more than it does the person who is unforgiven. So you forgive in order to not remain in bondage to the anger/disappointment, etc., etc. You forgive for you, not for them.
2. Forgiving is not the same as forgetting. If someone has victimized you, you don't have to forget that it happened in order to forgive the person who did it. People are sometimes unable to forgive because they fear that they cannot forget.
3. People hold onto their anger and hurt because they feel like they cannot trust God to keep score as well as they can do it.
4. The flip side of forgiveness is self-examination for our own part in it, and a willingness to confess our part in it and to make things right with the other person. CAVEAT: if you were physically, sexually, verbally, or psychologically abused, then you have no part in it. That kind of sickness is 100% on the perpetrator's shoulders.
5. Self examination means that we have to keep our side of the street clean, whether or not the other person keeps their side clean. For us to keep our side clean, it requires that we examine and admit our part in things, if we have a part in them, and then to make amends and seek forgiveness from the other side of the street; as well as forgiving them their own trespasses.
6. We make amends so that we won't remain in bondage to any guilt, shame, fear, self-blaming, etc., that we might be holding onto.
7. However, we make both forgiveness and amends freely, unconditionally. If you are depending upon reciprocation from the other side of the street before you will either forgive or make amends, then you will never be able to get it done, and you will remain in bondage to it.
Just a few thoughts. I take most of my guidance on these matters from Celebrate Recovery, and from the Beatitudes.
True words of Wisdom from a Wise Man!
Very well said Sir! I tip my hat to you!
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:44 pm
by bizarrenormality
The Hindu tradition offers a variety of views on the topic of forgiveness. From the theistic perspective we find in the Hindu scriptures a description of forgiveness as “the one supreme peace” (Mahabarata, Udyoga Parva Section XXXIII). In the Bhagavad Gita Krishnu, an avatar, or human incarnation, of the god Vishnu, lists forgiveness as a Divine characteristic when embodied by a human being. In the more philosophical Hindu traditions, a transcendental view is taken. When someone is wronged, the reflection arises that this, too, is the will of God. We don’t need to focus on the one who has wronged us because they were just acting as the instrument of the Divine. Rather we can reflect on what lesson we can learn.
A less theistic Hindu might evoke the Law of Karma, of cause and effect. Yet being unable to discover all the causes leading up to the unfortunate effect, it is difficult to assign blame and therefore to engage in forgiveness. In fact f rom the Karmic perspective, everything that happens to us is the result of our own past actions in this or some previous life. As such, it is more skillful to acknowledge the impermanence of the transgression and let go. Letting it go prevents it from causing continued suffering in the present. Even the thought of forgiveness keeps the event alive in memory. As for justice, the Law of Karma itself will hold the perpetrator accountable.
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:34 pm
by Texas_Blaze
for me, who was once separated from God, in order to gain sonship, thereby forgiveness, i had to seek forgivness. It is an interesting thought, forgiveness isn't earned, but it must be sought. But, God is faithful and just to forgive, so i imitate God and forgive those that seek it.
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:40 pm
by Oldgringo
I've never forgiven the woman who was driving the car that killed my son, her forgiveness has never entered my mind. Maybe she could have avoided hitting him, maybe not.
My question remains, what was God doing that afternoon in 1981 that He/She wasn't looking after the children; especially, my youngest son?
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:56 pm
by SewTexas
Texas_Blaze wrote:for me, who was once separated from God, in order to gain sonship, thereby forgiveness, i had to seek forgivness. It is an interesting thought, forgiveness isn't earned, but it must be sought. But, God is faithful and just to forgive, so i imitate God and forgive those that seek it.
remember though....He forgave us before we asked....
think through some of the things that have happened over your life...or don't...whatever...I know for me, if I hadn't forgiven the wrong-doer (mostly without their knowledge or asking) I would have been torn up inside and become the bitter person I was describing earlier. I know that person, I'm glad I'm not that person.
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:15 pm
by Texas_Blaze
Oldgringo wrote:I've never forgiven the woman who was driving the car that killed my son, her forgiveness has never entered my mind. Maybe she could have avoided hitting him, maybe not.
My question remains, what was God doing that afternoon in 1981 that He/She wasn't looking after the children; especially, my youngest son?
I am sorry for your loss and suffering. Even though you posed a question, it shouldn't be attempted to be answered on an internet forum. your reality is ever parent's most feared nightmare.
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:00 am
by jmra
A couple years ago the wife of a guy I went to high school with was killed when a teenage driver pulled out in front of her at an intersection. The teenage girl was not drinking or even texting (seems like texting is more taboo these days than drinking) when the collision occurred.
While the DA was pondering charges, the husband and daughter begged that mercy be granted to the young girl. To the best of my understanding, that mercy was granted. But the husband and daughter did not stop there. Through several court proceedings they realized the emotional trauma the young lady was going through (probably because they were experiencing it also). They felt that if they didn't do something that not one, but two lives would be lost.
To make a long story short, the grieving family took this young girl and by extension the rest of her family under their wing and treated them all as part of their own family.
I won't pretend to sit here and say that I would do the same thing. But, I will say that I hope that I would. I can't think of a better example of emulating Christ than the above.
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:19 am
by Cedar Park Dad
Oldgringo wrote:I've never forgiven the woman who was driving the car that killed my son, her forgiveness has never entered my mind. Maybe she could have avoided hitting him, maybe not.
My question remains, what was God doing that afternoon in 1981 that He/She wasn't looking after the children; especially, my youngest son?
I hear you and hope you are well.
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:06 am
by mojo84
If you hold a grudge, who does it hurt the most? The person holding the grudge or the person the grudge is against?
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:08 am
by mojo84
If you hold a grudge, who does it hurt the most? The person holding the grudge or the person the grudge is against?
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:40 am
by MeMelYup
mojo84 wrote:If you hold a grudge, who does it hurt the most? The person holding the grudge or the person the grudge is against?
Usually the person holding the grudge, because they continue to pick at it and cause it to fester. It becomes an obsession with them and they start looking for more wrongs and how to counter and get even.
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:48 am
by Keith B
Oldgringo wrote:
My question remains, what was God doing that afternoon in 1981 that He/She wasn't looking after the children; especially, my youngest son?
We normally don't allow religious topics to go, but I think this is one that is important to let run.
I am very lucky to have not lost any family member to an automobile accident. However, we lost a whole family that we were close just after they left church on Sunday a few years ago. The Mom, Dad, 12 year old daughter and their two young foster children were killed by a driver who was doing almost 100 MPH in a 40 MPH zone. He swerved to avoid stopped traffic at a red light, hit the curb and went air-born, sheering off the top of their minivan. Four were killed instantly, and one little 5 year old girl dies on the way to the hospital. The guy survived but is paralyzed waist down. The parents of both of our friends have forgiven the guy, but that didn't let him go off the hook for what he did. He is serving 15 years in prison for negligent vehicular manslaughter.
Now, you would think that if anyone would be 'protected' it would be a very faithful family who were super active in their church and were just leaving from attending services, but it doesn't work that way. Free will is hard to understand and why bad things happen to good people and why God 'lets it happen.' Our pastor is preaching a sermon on this very topic this coming Sunday. The sermon will streamed live and be online Sunday afternoon. I have actually hear this sermon before, and it really helped clarify this issue for me. If you have an interest in hearing what he has to say about this, let me know and I will send you the link.
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:09 am
by Cedar Park Dad
mojo84 wrote:If you hold a grudge, who does it hurt the most? The person holding the grudge or the person the grudge is against?
The person the grudge is against if they ever get a hold of them.
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:10 am
by Purplehood
jmra wrote:A couple years ago the wife of a guy I went to high school with was killed when a teenage driver pulled out in front of her at an intersection. The teenage girl was not drinking or even texting (seems like texting is more taboo these days than drinking) when the collision occurred.
While the DA was pondering charges, the husband and daughter begged that mercy be granted to the young girl. To the best of my understanding, that mercy was granted. But the husband and daughter did not stop there. Through several court proceedings they realized the emotional trauma the young lady was going through (probably because they were experiencing it also). They felt that if they didn't do something that not one, but two lives would be lost.
To make a long story short, the grieving family took this young girl and by extension the rest of her family under their wing and treated them all as part of their own family.
I won't pretend to sit here and say that I would do the same thing. But, I will say that I hope that I would. I can't think of a better example of emulating Christ than the above.
I completely understand that. Sometimes youngsters make horrible mistakes that are completely unintended (and have nothing to do with 'bad behavior'), and end-up beating themselves up over in what some may consider justifiable guilt.
I think it is wonderful that the victims family saw through their own pain and reached out to that young lady in hers.
Re: Forgiving. WWYD?
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:30 am
by LTUME1978
Many of us have experienced hurt or loss that has had a major impact on our lives. It is hard to know why that happens and it can be very difficult to forgive. I don't begin to think that I have all the answers for anyone. It was hard for me to forgive and turn loose and took a lot of time for that to happen (years). I had an inaccurate understanding of what forgiveness is all about and that was part of why it was hard for me to forgive. It was also hard to forgive because the pain was so great for so long. I can tell you that, for me, it did drive me much closer to the Lord and that is where I found peace.
Walyon Bailey is doing a devotional series on forgiveness now. You can go to his web site (WalyonBailey.com) and find that. It is very good and may help someone find peace or at least start down that path.