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Lucky45 wrote:

stevie_d_64 wrote:I believe it also looks good when you are rendering first aid to one or more sucking chest wound(s) as all that attention rolls into the scene...

But thats just me...

Are you serious??? With all the blood borne diseases around these days, the only aid you are getting is me calling 911. They are the professionals in the bio-hazard gear. I will be in the vicinity waiting.

No kidding...

Since I do know a lot about blood born pathogens, and some do not...Thats ok, I didn't specify the extent of the aid rendered, only a tongue in cheek effort...Being in the vacinity is about what I'd do as well more than likely...

I do happen to carry a certain level of protection with me at all times...And not that everyone should, unless you know the limitations and the responsibility once you commit to aiding in certain situations...

Liberty wrote:

jimlongley wrote:Shoot until the threat is reduced.

One of the things I didn't like about IDPA when I was involved, was the low level emphasis on round counts - I used to like to run stages that required people to shoot until the threat was gone, which always got some people's hackles up because they didn't know how many shots they were going to need.

Although I hate the "Texas Star" and some of the other reactive targets because they demonstrate to me what a mediocre shooter I am, I still like them because they force you to shoot until you hit properly.

Grrr.. It forced me to shoot until I emptied my mag.

Just one? Good shooting! I have had people hand me their mags, and I have handed others some of mine, when the round count went beyond the 25 I "officially had on me.

BrassMonkey wrote: There has to be a one size fits all initial volley. ............ I am just trying to figure out how many rounds I should be able to accurately put downrange in 1-2 seconds and what areas on the body I should concentrate on.

From all the info given, i think it is clear that there is not a set pattern for your first volley in a deadly force scenario. If you draw your weapon, aim for COM and fire a shot which strikes his head and he falls to the ground. Then that is all you need to fire. Will this happen?? maybe or maybe not. But that is the answer, you will only know that number when it happens.

stevie_d_64 wrote:

Lucky45 wrote:

stevie_d_64 wrote:I believe it also looks good when you are rendering first aid to one or more sucking chest wound(s) as all that attention rolls into the scene...

But thats just me...

Are you serious??? With all the blood borne diseases around these days, the only aid you are getting is me calling 911. They are the professionals in the bio-hazard gear. I will be in the vicinity waiting.

No kidding...

Since I do know a lot about blood born pathogens, and some do not...Thats ok, I didn't specify the extent of the aid rendered, only a tongue in cheek effort...Being in the vacinity is about what I'd do as well more than likely...

I do happen to carry a certain level of protection with me at all times...And not that everyone should, unless you know the limitations and the responsibility once you commit to aiding in certain situations...

Sheesh! I remember sitting in the firehouse after a rescue sucking down a beer before going to shower some of the gore off. Of course it was a volunteer department and we didn't even know that AIDS existed, but most of us didn't even think about gloves unless we were doing an emergency childbirth or protecting the victim from our (maybe dirty) hands.

Not that pathogen awareness is a bad thing, just reminiscing and thinking how far we have come.

I also held the department's record for prophylactic Hepatitis shots at one point.

Back to the subject at hand. I have set up IDPA stages using balloons behind the zero down zones. Tie them off and hang them right, the targets that is, and make people have to drop them to even see the rest of the stage. No minimum or maximum numbers of shots, just shoot until you neutralize the threat.

Lucky45 wrote:

BrassMonkey wrote: There has to be a one size fits all initial volley. ............ I am just trying to figure out how many rounds I should be able to accurately put downrange in 1-2 seconds and what areas on the body I should concentrate on.

From all the info given, i think it is clear that there is not a set pattern for your first volley in a deadly force scenario. If you draw your weapon, aim for COM and fire a shot which strikes his head and he falls to the ground. Then that is all you need to fire. Will this happen?? maybe or maybe not. But that is the answer, you will only know that number when it happens.

ok, thanks.

I was taught that you should be continually assessing; if the threat is close, you'll probably take your first shot before you're on the sights properly, so use the rest of the raise-and-align time to see if that's got the target down or running. Failing that, hammer COM 2-3 times, then transition up a bit and look for a nose. If you find one, he's still up and facing you, so shoot it.

Other than that, since I carry a 5-shot .357, I'll have a reload coming up soon that should make for a plenty of time to reassess...and try to regain night vision and hearing after touching off that cannon unprotected. (Lost my muffs one time while doing move-and-shoot work in a dry creekbed - decided that wouldn't stop me in a real situation, so I finished out the last two targets. A two-inch barrel and full-power .357s inside a creekbed is *not* a happy combination for your ears.)

srothstein wrote: But, the new failure drills that we teach include two shots center of mass, one shot to the head, and then one shot to the hips. The presumption is that if the two COM shots do not stop, then the BG is wearing body armor.

While I understand the possibility of LEO's running into BGs wearing body armor, Is it realistic for the every day citizen to expect to see armor in a defensive situation? I understand that it has played a part in some police shootouts, but its my understanding that the everyday badguy doesn't wear it much here in the sweaty gulf coast.

On doubletaps. I think that not only does the situation dictate whether double/triple taps but, what one is packing should be a part of the equation. one might train digfferent if one carries 16 rounds of 9mm with a spare mag or a 7 shot .45 1911 or a tiny pocket gun. Tactics that fit one aren't going to be suitable for everyone. A few big bullets might require a little different tactic than someone carrying 30+ rounds of medium sized ammo.

Liberty wrote:

srothstein wrote: But, the new failure drills that we teach include two shots center of mass, one shot to the head, and then one shot to the hips. The presumption is that if the two COM shots do not stop, then the BG is wearing body armor.

While I understand the possibility of LEO's running into BGs wearing body armor, Is it realistic for the every day citizen to expect to see armor in a defensive situation? I understand that it has played a part in some police shootouts, but its my understanding that the everyday badguy doesn't wear it much here in the sweaty gulf coast.

It is not the everyday burglar that I am concerned about facing. ;)

In the military, with the exception of sniper training and certain, "special forces" training scenarios, we are taught to shoot COM almost exclusively. WHY? It is a much larger target to hit. Lets face it, even with the best of training, if you have to pull your weapon in self defense, your heart is going to be pumping so hard your vision will cloud, the adrenaline will make your hands shake. Instinctively aiming COM gives you a much better chance of putting rounds on target. If after a few to the body, he's still coming AND you have settled enough to think about head shots, put two into his face.

Yeah Yeah, I know what my signature says..That was early in the training, and was more of a joke with the range master who just happened to be a friend. :-)

Liberty wrote:

srothstein wrote: But, the new failure drills that we teach include two shots center of mass, one shot to the head, and then one shot to the hips. The presumption is that if the two COM shots do not stop, then the BG is wearing body armor.

While I understand the possibility of LEO's running into BGs wearing body armor, Is it realistic for the every day citizen to expect to see armor in a defensive situation? I understand that it has played a part in some police shootouts, but its my understanding that the everyday badguy doesn't wear it much here in the sweaty gulf coast.

Many a bank robber has worn body armor. While it's extremely unlikely that you're going to ever encounter and engage an armored bank robber, it is good to have the possibility in mind a and practice with non-COM shots. I often practice transitioning to the head after 2-3 COM shots, with different delays and movement if the range I'm at allows.

It's also good to keep in mind that COM may not always be an option, even without armor. What I have read tells me that if a COM shot isn't available, a head shot or pelvis shot is the next way to go, depending on your circumstances. Variables like cover and bystanders may be a factor here. If you've got a group or people behind the BG, and he's drawing on you, your only option may be to drop to a crouch and make an upward head shot. The same kind of situation may require you to make a downward shot to the pelvis, such as a mall situation where there are bystanders slightly elevated from your position, requiring a low shot to keep errant rounds from striking the crowd.

Something else worth remembering: If the BG you are engaging has body armor on, you may not see any effect from your hits (and also if he's not wearing it) all that tv and movie stuff that shows people getting knocked down by hits on body armor is a little exaggerated. A good maxim is that if the recoil does no knock you down, the impact is unlikely to knock him down, so keep shooting . . .

Yeah, there was this incident up in Tyler that kinda made us think a little bit about the whole body armor issue...

Cost one particular fellow his life...But how was he (or anyone else) to know, right???

Body armor is the least of my worries...I know what I am shooting, and know if the threat is not stopped, with one or two rounds...I'll be looking for cover...Plain and simple...

You can address the situation better from that position...

Just my opinion...

In the Advanced Defense Shooting (that I won in a contest here), Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn teach for multiple assailants double tap two to center mass, in fact their timed shots show almost NO substantial increase in the time it takes to double tap or single tap multiple assailants..however they say the point is to get more disabling shots onto the targets, one round might NOT stop the badguy, and by the time you put one center mass on each the 1st target that even though has sustained a critical wound may not realize it yet

Double tap two center mass, more holes = better

I really do recommend these videos for you CHLers out there!

I cannot say how many BG's are wearing armor. Cops train for it and have seen it more often lately, so I assume that the CHL's will also start encountering it in the future. There are other conditions which will cause the COM shots to not stop the person, including drug use. Remember that the only shot that will definitely drop a person in his tracks is the medulla oblongata, which is a very hard target to hit (police snipers train for it with rifles at 50 to 100 yards).

A COM shot may be fatal and not stop the threat. So, while we use it for body armor, another reason for you to practice these drills might be just the old rule of insanity (when you do something and it doesn't work, to keep doing it and expect a different result is crazy).

By sheer chance, I was discussing this type of situation with one of the agents at work today. He had a similar situation (he had three .40 caliber hits to the chest of the BG who was charging him with a knife) to mine occur in his shooting, except the hip shot did not drop the BG. A backup officer saw the failures and shot the BG in the back one time and then the hips one time with a .45. The last shot convinced the BG to stop the attack and he walked off about 20 feet, climbed onto a trampoline in the yard, and laid down and died. Autopsy showed show much drugs, the BG did not notice that the hip joint was almost disintegrated from the 45 breaking both the ball and socket parts of the joint. This agent is now more a fan of head shots than hip shots, though he admits there are always examples of anything not stopping the BG.

Result of all of the stories of real police shootings I know of is to shoot and keep shooting until the person is not a threat. I think that was also the consensus here.

"middle ya oblong gotcha", where is that located? I tend to like the idea of aiming for the lower body. Guess I have a new practice drill.