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casingpoint wrote:

GWB made several decisions that I have problems with. The subversion of liberty and constitutional guarantees in the Patriot act rank high on that list (along with domestic wiretapping, and other decisions that spent liberty in the name of security

As George Washington said, in wartime soldiers must necessarily give up some of the very freedoms they are fighting for. To the extent that we are all soldiers in the War on Terrorism and the jihad against America, deal with it.

Well, solders give up A LOT of freedoms when they serve. Obviously, the military is not a democracy.

But it is NOT the same to ask citizens (civilians) to give up Constitutional rights because the country is at war. Those running the war HAVE to figure out a way to execute that war within the governmental limits that this country was founded on. In fact, that's what the solders are ultimately fighting for.

It would be a shame to have those solders "win" the war, only to come home to find the rights and liberties they were fighting for were dissolved here at home while they were away.

Purplehood wrote:Of course. We swap liberties for security. I think I have heard that some where.

...And those that do, lose both

sjfcontrol,

The war has been waged here on U.S. soil for some time now. It started with the first bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 by Muslim militants. We are all soldiers on the front lines, living in a war zone. Rights? Not right now.

should we be willing to give up our Second Amendment Rights for the sake of the war on terror, or the coming push to do so in the name of the "war on drugs" (Mexico). And wich other of our rights should we be willing to compromise for the sake of the current trendy "crisis"?

surv

They are here. One of these days...it will be Fort Hood all over again. In a mall, in a subway station, another high rise building...
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/11/23/stor ... 740800.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The more you are attacked, the more rights you will be willing to part with.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

casingpoint wrote:sjfcontrol,

The war has been waged here on U.S. soil for some time now. It started with the first bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 by Muslim militants. We are all soldiers on the front lines, living in a war zone. Rights? Not right now.

We may be in a war zone (of sorts, and it has been going on longer than sincd 1993), but we are NOT soldiers. We are civilians, and citizens. If (when) we lose our rights and freedoms, we lose the war. Not too long ago, there was another "Hussein" totalitarian government that we needed to overthrow in the name of liberty. It would indeed be ironic if George Bush's replacement brought THAT form of government to US.

casingpoint wrote: The more you are attacked, the more rights you will be willing to part with.

Not me! Not willingly! -- And all the more reason for RKBA support here!

Ironically, the problem with Ft. Hood was, as a military base, it had become a "gun free zone". Had the soldiers been wearing sidearms, the results would have been quite different.

casingpoint wrote:They are here. One of these days...it will be Fort Hood all over again. In a mall, in a subway station, another high rise building...
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/11/23/stor ... 740800.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The more you are attacked, the more rights you will be willing to part with.

Yes, there will be other attacks because we've made them so easy. We're even so helpful as to post signs that identify locations where attackers can be assured they won't meet effective resistance. In the epitome of idiocy, this now includes our military bases.

Attackers, whether criminals or jihadists, look for circumstances where they can be successful because they will not be effectively opposed. If you find yourself in the middle of one, in the initial stages of the emergency, you're on your own. If you allow yourself to be deprived of the means for successful defense in exchange for a false promise of safety, your God given right to life will be history as well.

Only those who are sadly ignorant of history will consent to repeating the mistakes of the past by believing a government that abridges liberty has their safety and welfare in mind.

Each time a country drinks this Kool Aid, the eventual result is millions killed by the government that promised its people safety. Read Germany , the Soviet Union, China, Rwanda, Burma, and on and on.........