Should Schools Be "Prohibited Places"?

[74novaman]

You could legislate deep concealment but in practice could not possibly guarantee it. Sorry, some folks are just stupid. Yes, some of those teachers, too. Just idiots--and I can guarantee they would do something stupid with their gun, and one kid would be on it like a duck on a junebug. If as a principal if I could cherry pick who could or could not carry, I would feel better. But honestly, I've known folks who had absolutely no business being armed. Some years ago I knew an unarmed night time security guard who deliberately ran over kids in the parking lot. He said he wanted to shoot them, but not having a gun, he chose to run them down with his pov. You should not assume that everyone who is "qualified" to carry, should.

Well when we get around to appointing you King, you can decree who is allowed to carry and who isn't.

I think allowing teachers with CHLs to carry would be a non issue.

Those who are already defense minded and responsible would carry and be able to protect themselves and their students.

Most teachers won't bother going trough the hassle of a class, paying money, etc. You'll probably wind up with the same percentage of teachers carrying as average population carrying, less than 5%. But that may be enough to dissuade crazy loons from thinking a school is a soft target to make themselves famous.

Heck, if nothing else a simple argument is this: Schools being a gun free zone has obviously worked out so well....maybe its time we try something else.

[gdanaher]

We're ALL worried about the idiot-factor tainting our reputation or ruining our freedom, but we're not allowed to give an IQ test before granting people their Constitutional rights.
.

Constitutional rights, in and of themselves, are normally not potentially lethal. You have never been in a classroom other than as a student and it shows. Picture the worst prison movies you have ever seen. Picture the prisoners watching the guards, looking for their unique quirks, waiting for a moment of weakness. It can be an elementary school or a high school, and there will be kids who are just waiting for the teacher to drop guard and they will be in possession of that handgun. Concealed does not mean concealed in a public school. They know if you wear the same color socks two days in a row. There is no way to objectively test people to assure that only the sharpest, most keen of mind are permitted to carry. That gets into the 'may issue' versus 'must issue' argument. At the end of the day you either allow all employees with a chl to carry in the school or you allow nobody with a chl to carry. Again, if permitted to cherry pick the candidates, it might be a workable scenario. In the absence of that, the prudent thing would be to forbid. Districts in this part of the forest have campus assigned police officers or districts have an actual PD under the ISD umbrella. This is not the solution, but at least the BG knows that SOMEONE is armed.

[bizarrenormality]

The logical conclusion of your argument is that ISD cops shouldn't be allowed to carry.

[n5wd]

One of the reasons why school administrators and school boards will resist allowing CHL'ers to carry in schools is the possibility that the weapon may be turned upon themselves.

As in the shooting at the Episcopal High School in Jacksonville, FL on March 6, 2012.

http://www.11alive.com/news/article/231 ... igh-school

That bad guy was going to bring that gun to school, allowed or not. If the victim was allowed to carry a firearm, perhaps he would still be alive.

While I understand and agree with what you say, I also understand what the argument against will be.

[C-dub]

Okay. So, while I know a few LEOs, I've never asked them what kind of firearms training they actually get, although I know one of them has said that it isn't very much. Do some or all LEOs get any kind of IDPA or IPSC type training or whatever that would make them any more qualified than some of us that go to the range at least once every couple of months or take some kind of tactical class?

[donniet]

Harrold ISD has allowed CHL carry for quite some time now. I haven't heard of any problems there. The reasons not to allow CHL in the classroom is the same old "blood in the streets" argument we heard for no CHL at all. I do work in public education every day and my wife is a teacher. I understand a bit about what the nay sayers are speaking of. Just my opinion.
Edited to add link http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/200 ... tesenator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Beiruty]

Today, at my kids school, they had an open house. I forget to disarm and had to walk back some 400 yrds to get back to the where I parked my car to disarm and get back inside, and there was a little of rain.

[ScottDLS]

Today, at my kids school, they had an open house. I forget to disarm and had to walk back some 400 yrds to get back to the where I parked my car to disarm and get back inside, and there was a little of rain.

Hmmm... Mr. Beiruty we are in very close proximity... I didn't forget to disarm though. So mine was in the car waiting for a deranged elementary school student to steal...

[Beiruty]

Is this the school?

http://www.allenisd.org/mariones" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gdanaher]

Harrold ISD has allowed CHL carry for quite some time now. I haven't heard of any problems there. The reasons not to allow CHL in the classroom is the same old "blood in the streets" argument we heard for no CHL at all. I do work in public education every day and my wife is a teacher. I understand a bit about what the nay sayers are speaking of. Just my opinion.
Edited to add link http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/200 ... tesenator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Harrold ISD is a good jumping off point. Harrold is located on US 287 just west of Electra. If you blink you will miss it. They have 1 school for all grades, a total of 14 teachers and 96 students through all grades. That gives them a pupil to teacher ratio of 6.8:1. The Texas state average is closer to 12.7:1. Those teachers can carry but they aren't so much worried about a BG crashing the doors as finding a coiled rattle snake in a closet.

Edit: I overlooked the Sup, Principal, Secretary, 3 Paras, 3 Custodians/maintenance workers, and the cafeteria manager. That takes the ratio of students to adults down to 4:1. Please find an urban school with similar numbers.

[RPB]

Size doesn't matter ...

as a factor in the logic because ... remember the small school of Amish girls who got executed?
small student/teacher ratio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_school_shooting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://articles.cnn.com/2006-10-02/us/a ... v?_s=PM:US" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And ...

Location as a factor? out in the boonies/blink and miss it?

there was a meth lab bust next door to the Harrold school.

week after school began, police busted a methamphetamine lab set up

http://www.google.com/search?q=harrold+ ... 24&bih=636" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So .... even though Harrold ISD may be isolated and small, such as the Amish school, and others where shootings have occurred, that would just mean it's more likely your schools in more populated places are even more likely to have such incidents with a larger population nearby

[74novaman]

Harrold ISD has allowed CHL carry for quite some time now. I haven't heard of any problems there. The reasons not to allow CHL in the classroom is the same old "blood in the streets" argument we heard for no CHL at all. I do work in public education every day and my wife is a teacher. I understand a bit about what the nay sayers are speaking of. Just my opinion.
Edited to add link http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/200 ... tesenator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Harrold ISD is a good jumping off point. Harrold is located on US 287 just west of Electra. If you blink you will miss it. They have 1 school for all grades, a total of 14 teachers and 96 students through all grades. That gives them a pupil to teacher ratio of 6.8:1. The Texas state average is closer to 12.7:1. Those teachers can carry but they aren't so much worried about a BG crashing the doors as finding a coiled rattle snake in a closet.

Well, color me confused. Teacher to student ratio should be the indication of whether people are allowed to carry?

What are college ratios, 20:1 or closer to 30:1 for larger schools. But those teachers shouldn't be able to protect themselves either because there are too many students? After all, a college campus has never been attacked by a mad man.......oh. wait. Virginia Tech comes to mind.

[74novaman]

I'd like to add one more thing. Yes, college students are different than middle school/high school students.

BUT.

A teacher with a CHL can conceal, not talk about it and none of the kids will know they have one anyway.

That negates any worry of a student doing something foolish to try and take the teachers gun (I think maybe that's why you're talkign about student/teacher ratios? or do you think some poor, overstressed teacher with too many kids and a CHL will reduce the ratio themselves??)

Simply put, when CHL in Texas passed, the predictions of shootouts, mistaken identities with police, etc were massive and completely unfounded.

Then we amended the code to carry in Churches, amusment parks etc that were previously prohibited.

Still no blood in the streets.

What makes you think that when we remove this invisible forcefield around schools its going to be any different from any other previously off limits location??

The sad and simple fact is good, honest people obey laws. Criminals, scum and murders do not.

The laws prohibiting carry in schools (of all levers, from elementary to college) just create "victim zones" where criminals know their targets are disarmed because unlike the criminal, the teachers and students follow the law.

Why on earth should we continue disarming good people??

[gdanaher]

A teacher with a CHL can conceal, not talk about it and none of the kids will know they have one anyway. Are you saying this, tongue in cheek, or are you serious? I have worked in this industry for a very long time. If a teacher smokes, the kids know it, can state what brand, etc. They sit in front of the teachers all day and study them. If someone is carrying, they are going to know it. Guaranteed. What they do with the information is subject of this debate, but don't think for a nanosecond they won't know.

snip

Why on earth should we continue disarming good people?? No one here suggested that you should disarm good people. It's the BGs that we worry about.

This is a local matter with each of the various school boards. I want you to buttonhole your local school board members. Make an appointment to speak formally to the board, present your arguments, and view the reaction. It is entirely up to the local board to allow or forbid cc in the schools. Use Harrold ISD as an example if you choose. If you live in a rural community where everyone has a shotgun in their pickup truck and the town clergy gather to hunt ducks, you might have success. If you live in Houston, Dallas, or heaven forbid, Austin, they may call the guys in white coats to examine your cranial contents. Remember that the audience of this thread is largely like minded on most matters related to personal protection and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the less informed.

[74novaman]

No one here suggested that you should disarm good people. It's the BGs that we worry about.

[/quote]

Its quite simple. If you prohibit CHL holders from carryong on a campus, you're disarming the good guys. The bad guys you're worried about? They DON'T worry about simple things like breaking a gun law.

Unless you're trying to imply that CHL holders are the Bad Guys you're worried about?

As to concealment....with proper dress, a good holster and a good belt, my own wife doesn't know if I'm carrying or not.

So no tongue in cheek at all. I absolutely believe you can conceal a gun without letting a bunch of kinds know about it if you're prudent with how you dress and carry, and don't go blabbing to people that you're carrying. It truly is that simple.