So, What'd ya'll do?

[DoubleJ]

The little lady and I thought it would be cool to do something educational for Memorial. We have a 12yr old, and wanted to help give her some appreciation for Memorial Day, so we were looking for something memorial-like.
so, I punch in "Dallas" and "Memorial" in the ol' gun-friendly search-engine, and guess what popped up?

yup, a link to ye olde Sixth Floor Museum. Well, I had known that JFK had been assassinated in Dallas, but hadn't thought about it in a long time. Also, I figured since JFK served in the military, it was apropriate.


anyway, so we made plans to check out the Book Depository, located at the corner of Elm and Houston streets, in sunny Downtown Dallas, Texas. I didn't know what to expect, and didn't really have any preconceived notions as to what they would have. I kinda figured they'd have Oswald's little "sniper's perch" set up, and that'd be it.

I was sorely mistaken. much to my delight, and surprise, they had a LOT more.

however, much to my chagrin, they were posted with a 30.06 sign, so I had to perform the "Walk of Shame" back out to ye olde truck; to place the Gat in my titanium reinforced, deadly gas booby-trapped lockbox.

regardless, not wanting to ruin the experience, we entered, untethered by my Hand Cannon, and purchased our tickets. the audio tour was great. It's narrated by one of the reporters covering the presidential motorcade that day. Coincidentally, that reporter ran into (literally) Oswald, as Oswald was vacating the Book Depository.
The tour itself was just riddled with displays that contained photos, information, videos (like the Jack Ruby vid), and some actual items. They have the corner that Oswald used sequestered off, so you can get an idea of exactly how he was lined up and what-have-ya. it's neat, looking out of the 6th floor, you really get an idea of how it all went down, and the feasability of the 3 shots taken.

This is the 6th floor (the one with the window open). pic from the street.

This X in the road marks the first hit. this shot went through JFK's neck, hit Gov Connally in the back, went through his right wrist, and embedde itself in his left thigh. down the road a ways is the second X, where JFK was struck in the head.
then we ventured up to the 7th floor, which is where they have literally ALL of the homevideos shot that day, including the famous Abraham Zapruder footage of the actual assassination. was fascinating, to say the least.
afterwards, we went down and sat on the Grassy Knoll and talked about all that we had learned. Surprised me how much the 12yr old had gotten out of the occasion. I think she genuinely grasped the gravity of all that had transpired that day. After that, we took a stroll to the big square memorial to JFK. and then homeward bound.
all in all, a great trip.

as an aside, did have an interesting "security" related happening. before we got to the Museum, we stopped at a CVS down the street so I could get some cash for parking After exiting the CVS, I noticed a Bum walking up the street. Got in to my truck, locked the doors, and began to get ready to drive off.
The Bum walked up on my side of the truck, and began to knock on the window and holler something. I glanced up at the sound, threw the truck in gear, and floored it.
I knew he was walking up on us, but he appeared to have walked past. musta stopped and came back on us, while I was putting on my seatbelt. Glad I had the doors locked, and glad I drive a V8!
all's well that ends well, right?

[The Annoyed Man]

We visited that museum and Dealey Plaza a couple of years ago. At the time, the 7th floor was occupied by some leftwing organization of some kind or other. You were allowed to go up, but I didn't want my blood pressure to go up as well, so we staying on the 6th floor. But the 6th Floor Museum was pretty cool. For years I've wondered how Oswald pulled off those shots, and then I was able to look out the window to the right of the one he fired from, and I was surprised at how close those white Xs on the pavement were. Pretty much any trained rifleman could have made those shots. If I recall correctly, the head shot was made at a distance of 181 feet, or just over 60 yards.

Two things bothered me about the whole experience. One was all the conspiracy theorists hawking their cheesey publications all over the place. The other was that a lot of visitors would run out into the street, sometimes dodging traffic, to stand on the second X and have their pictures taken from the sidewalk. It was ghoulish. I'm old enough to remember the events of that day pretty clearly. Whatever anybody thinks of Jack Kennedy, it was the assassination of an American president, and the ground on which it happened deserves to be trod with more dignity than that.

[Skiprr]

Two things bothered me about the whole experience. One was all the conspiracy theorists hawking their cheesey publications all over the place. The other was that a lot of visitors would run out into the street, sometimes dodging traffic, to stand on the second X and have their pictures taken from the sidewalk. It was ghoulish. I'm old enough to remember the events of that day pretty clearly. Whatever anybody thinks of Jack Kennedy, it was the assassination of an American president, and the ground on which it happened deserves to be trod with more dignity than that.

Very well said. Thank you.

[saj111]

i took my son and daughter there a few years ago. the building wasn't open at the time so we looked from the outside only. standing on the corner across from the book depository my son said, "he shot from that window?" "yeah." "he hit him there?" "yeah." "good shooting." indeed it was, but a very sad day i remember all too well as i was in the eighth grade in the dallas area at the time.
it's great to teach our kids history by visits to the place it happened.

as to your original question; i shot in my first uspsa match in san antonio. didn't do worth squat but had a great time intend to repeat in two weeks at the next one.

[jimlongley]

A couple of years ago a long time friend from upstate NY came down to visit and one of the places she wanted to see was dealy plaza. We were in high school when the assassination happened and I still recall talking with her and others about the shots and possible conspiracy. I was an active high power rifle shooter at the time, yes, in high school, and no one that I knew was able to duplicate Oswald's supposed feat, no one but a couple of VERY VERY highly skilled shooters nationally.

Anyway, my friend, my wife, and I went down to the Sixth Floor Museum, and of course I disarmed, but I also filed an objection to the improper signage used.

When we left, my friend, who had declared just the night before that Oswald had to be the only shooter, left the museum declaring that she was newly converted and believed that there had to be more than one shooter.

I remain unconvinced either way.

[lunchbox]

JFK did not just serve he was a was hero and even has a GI joe made of him
wish i could say that about me
great man

the magic bullet will never be solved

[DoubleJ]

A couple of years ago a long time friend from upstate NY came down to visit and one of the places she wanted to see was dealy plaza. We were in high school when the assassination happened and I still recall talking with her and others about the shots and possible conspiracy. I was an active high power rifle shooter at the time, yes, in high school, and no one that I knew was able to duplicate Oswald's supposed feat, no one but a couple of VERY VERY highly skilled shooters nationally.

Anyway, my friend, my wife, and I went down to the Sixth Floor Museum, and of course I disarmed, but I also filed an objection to the improper signage used.

When we left, my friend, who had declared just the night before that Oswald had to be the only shooter, left the museum declaring that she was newly converted and believed that there had to be more than one shooter.

I remain unconvinced either way.

I am surprised about that first part. Standing up on that sixth floor, I really thought, "Sure, no problem." even with the first shot being a miss. maybe Oswald missed that first one and someone was nice enough to help him out with the other two shots.... I dunno.
Walking around the displays, I really had to wonder about that bullet that was recovered from a gurney, that allegedly was the round that hit JFK in the neck, and went through the Gov. just seems to me that it woulda been a little more jacked up than that. Seems like most handgun rounds (travelling significantly slower, and jacketed) deform, and/or lose their jacket and what-have-ya. this thing looked like a standard lead round, and really was in the same same...
I dunno.

as far as the signage goes, I didn't measure the letters, but it appeared to be compliant from what I could tell (correct verbiage, eng/esp), so I surely wasn't going to break the law. I thought they were owned/operated by the city o' dallas, but a sign on the inside said otherwise. Since Frankie wasn't there to tell me whether or not a Leasee could change that, I just disarmed and enjoyed the museum.

[nitrogen]

The letters were NOT 1" high when I attempted to go.
It didn't matter, as they wanted to search you upon entering. Told 'em they could stuff it.

Here are pics I took when I went:
http://gallery.nurgle.net/v/texas/dealey/

[The Annoyed Man]

I saw a show a few months ago that replicated the conditions under which Oswald made those shots, including the hits on Gov. Connolly, and they were able to produce a bullet in the same general condition as the one that was found on the gurney. The used manikins made from cadaver skeletons encased in man shaped ballistic gelatin, seated in a target vehicle, moving away and downhill from a shooter in a tower, using the same kind of rifle and ammunition as Oswald's. Then they filmed the entire sequence with high speed cameras to record the bullet tracks through the manikins. They were able to duplicate that bullet's condition without having to add in any other special conditions to make it happen.

Walking around the displays, I really had to wonder about that bullet that was recovered from a gurney, that allegedly was the round that hit JFK in the neck, and went through the Gov. just seems to me that it woulda been a little more jacked up than that.

According to this website:

6.5 mm M-S cartridge was designed a full century ago for a rifle adopted in Creek as a Mannlicher Model 1903 military rifle. Italians were adopded about similar 6.5 x 52 mm Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge ten years earlier (in 1891) and during the last decade of 19th century many countries like Netherlands, Roumania, Sweden, Japan and Portugal adopted 6.5 mm rifles for their armed forces. The very first assault rifle in the world, FYODOROVA AVTOMAT Model 1916, was chambered to shoot 6.5 mm Arisaka (Japanese) cartridges with somewhat reduced powder charges. It's designer VLADIMIR G. FYODOROV was a protagonist of caliber 6.5 mm and shortened case (about 40 mm) until the final adoptment of 7.62 x 39 mm cartridge in 1943.

Just the Crecian army adopted 6.5 mm M-S rifles, but the cartridge became soon popular among hunters. Some most intrepid professional ivory hunters shot elephants with full-metal jacketed bullets of 6.5 x 54 mm Mannlicher cartridges, since the low noise level of a rifle didn't scare the elephant herd to escape or attack, and accuracy of rifle allowed clean kills with well-placed brain shots. A long round-pointed FMJ bullet perforated easily one meter thick cellular bone in the skull of elephant, without bending and deviation.

Given the above, it's easy to understand why the bullet found on the gurney was in as good a condition as it was found in.

[AEA]

It's a nice display and seems to take you back in time.

I went before I was a CHL. I will not go back.

[HerbM]

If you have had any sniper training your first reaction to entering the sixth floor room and seeing the windows' thick wall casement is: No way anyone's best plan is going hard right and extreme down angle to track movement across, and angled, to the line of site, when the windows face straight at the oncoming traffic before the turn offering, a much slower changing perspective. Neither distance is great and near zero relative motion beats a constantly changing, plunging angle of fire any day.

How many of you have had trouble just getting your sites or scope on target when working around walls, out windows, etc -- how about then the walls are several feet thick? Those are some DEEP DISH windows.

Supposedly (on of the books on the technical aspects of the shooting) they asked Carlos Hatchcock while he was still training at the Quantico school: The answer received was (words to the effect but this is very close), "We set it up here [at the Sniper School], ran it multiple times, and none of us can do it."

Proves nothing, but one look and I would need very strong proof of the official story -- I am not into "conspiracies theories" either so again, I cannot say what did or did not happen. Anything is possible. The official story seems highly improbable from a purely technical shooting point of view on several levels:

1) Plausibility that anyone who could make the shots would set it up that way

2) Plausibility of it being physically doable that way if this choice was made

3) Number of rounds, trajectories, hits, angles (wounds and ballistics)

4) Rifle and time to aim and fire from this odd angle/position

One of these would cast doubt -- together they just reinforce each other. And that is before you get to the politics, Ruby, the rifle going missing, Oswald's stories, his history, etc.

[DoubleJ]

Given the above, it's easy to understand why the bullet found on the gurney was in as good a condition as it was found in.

I hear ya, but I don't think the bullet found was a FMJ, looked, to me, like it was just a lead bullet. could be wrong, though.

good to see a little Thread Necromancy goin' on here. anyone care to comment on the interaction before the tour?

in regards to the 30.06 and all that. usually I would tell'em to stick it, as well. however, I was there with The Kid et al, and still having my knife, OC, car keys et al, didn't feel "unarmed."
eh, well.

[The Annoyed Man]

Given the above, it's easy to understand why the bullet found on the gurney was in as good a condition as it was found in.

I hear ya, but I don't think the bullet found was a FMJ, looked, to me, like it was just a lead bullet. could be wrong, though.

good to see a little Thread Necromancy goin' on here. anyone care to comment on the interaction before the tour?

in regards to the 30.06 and all that. usually I would tell'em to stick it, as well. however, I was there with The Kid et al, and still having my knife, OC, car keys et al, didn't feel "unarmed."
eh, well.

If you mean the interaction with the threatening transient, I'm sure glad to have my CHL now! I didn't have it yet when I went to that museum. As a general thing, I wouldn't give my business to an entity that posted a 30.06. But as a practical matter, I was with my family at the time, and had I possessed a CHL at the time, I would have probably disarmed rather than stand on principle and denied my family the opportunity to see it - particularly my son, for whom the history lesson was important and had a lot of impact on him.

As to the "missing bullet" theory, I'll offer this last item, and then I'll leave it alone. Here is the picture of the bullet I saw that was supposedly recovered from the gurney, and it looks like an FMJ to me. Perhaps it's not the actual bullet that was actually recovered from the gurney?


Here is a butt view of the same bullet, showing the copper jacketing:

[DoubleJ]

As to the "missing bullet" theory, I'll offer this last item, and then I'll leave it alone. Here is the picture of the bullet I saw that was supposedly recovered from the gurney, and it looks like an FMJ to me.

I agree with ya on this one! yeah, the picture I saw was black and white, so I could only assume.

and you know what happens when you do that! yeah, I could pretty well understand why the bullet didn't obliterate, then. still interesting.