Civil forfeiture

[seamusTX]

Most of you probably know that when a person is accused of drug dealing, the authorities can seize any assets used in the "business" of drug dealing. This can include the person's home, vehicles, and other possessions. This type of forfeiture is difficult and expensive to fight.

A West Virginia man plead guilty to selling cocaine. Check out the list of items seized:

... three parcels of real estate located in Baker Tax District, which includes Dingess' home, $2,016 in cash, a Chrysler 300M four-door sedan, a 2001 Honda 750 Shadow motorcycle, a 2004 Ford Ranger registered to Dingess Lumber Co. and 22 firearms including a Jennings .380 Caliber Model 48 with clip and one box of .380 ammo, a black case containing two handguns, one Sport Arms .22 Caliber Derringer, one Savage 7.65, one Winchester single shot 12 gauge, one 7.62 x 39 Yugo Rifle, one Winchester 38/55 Model 94, one Winchester 30/30 Model 94 Legendary Lawman, one Ruger .22 caliber Model 1022, one .22 caliber Marlin Model 60 with Bushnell Scope, one Browning 30-06 with Tasco scope, one Marlin .22 Caliber with Simmons Scope, one Remington .243 Caliber with scope, one Marlin 30/30 Model 336, one Remington 12 gauge Model 870, one Marlin 45/70 Model 1895SS Government with Golden Scope, one P Beretta Gardone VT 20 GA Model S685 Special, one 16 gauge Remington Sportsman 5B, one .50 caliber Springfield Hawken Black Powder muzzeloader, one Browning 12 gauge Light 12, one Night Vision scope by BAS and a .357 magnum Dan Wesson loaded with .38 caliber ammo.

Other items include a black case containing wireless camera surveillance equipment, security system, a pot containing loose change, a digital security system with recorder monitor and Sony Tritontron TV, a computer with computer accessories, two file boxes containing miscellaneous ammunition, a wireless video system and four surveillance cameras.

http://theintermountain.com/page/conten ... 15589.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

[Liberty]

Most of you probably know that when a person is accused of drug dealing, the authorities can seize any assets used in the "business" of drug dealing. This can include the person's home, vehicles, and other possessions. This type of forfeiture is difficult and expensive to fight.

A West Virginia man plead guilty to selling cocaine. Check out the list of items seized:

... three parcels of real estate located in Baker Tax District, which includes Dingess' home, $2,016 in cash, a Chrysler 300M four-door sedan, a 2001 Honda 750 Shadow motorcycle, a 2004 Ford Ranger registered to Dingess Lumber Co. and 22 firearms including a Jennings .380 Caliber Model 48 with clip and one box of .380 ammo, a black case containing two handguns, one Sport Arms .22 Caliber Derringer, one Savage 7.65, one Winchester single shot 12 gauge, one 7.62 x 39 Yugo Rifle, one Winchester 38/55 Model 94, one Winchester 30/30 Model 94 Legendary Lawman, one Ruger .22 caliber Model 1022, one .22 caliber Marlin Model 60 with Bushnell Scope, one Browning 30-06 with Tasco scope, one Marlin .22 Caliber with Simmons Scope, one Remington .243 Caliber with scope, one Marlin 30/30 Model 336, one Remington 12 gauge Model 870, one Marlin 45/70 Model 1895SS Government with Golden Scope, one P Beretta Gardone VT 20 GA Model S685 Special, one 16 gauge Remington Sportsman 5B, one .50 caliber Springfield Hawken Black Powder muzzeloader, one Browning 12 gauge Light 12, one Night Vision scope by BAS and a .357 magnum Dan Wesson loaded with .38 caliber ammo.

Other items include a black case containing wireless camera surveillance equipment, security system, a pot containing loose change, a digital security system with recorder monitor and Sony Tritontron TV, a computer with computer accessories, two file boxes containing miscellaneous ammunition, a wireless video system and four surveillance cameras.

http://theintermountain.com/page/conten ... 15589.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

One of the things that happens is they seize financial assets, so that it can be difficult to raise enough money to hire some lawyers.

[seamusTX]

Yeah, that's a slick Catch-22.

Of course, where this guy is going, he isn't going to need all that stuff.

While we're on the subject, I hope everyone is aware that if a person has more than $10,000 in cash in one place, it is assumed to be illegally obtained until proven otherwise.

- Jim

[TexasVet]

While we're on the subject, I hope everyone is aware that if a person has more than $10,000 in cash in one place, it is assumed to be illegally obtained until proven otherwise.

So if you have over 10k of cash you are ASSUMED guilty.. isn't that the other way around.. wouldn't it have to be proved to be illegally obtained to reach that conclusion. With the recession many people were not trusting their banks and were pulling money out left and right.. So I bet there were quite a few people who had that kind of cash around.
Is there any law (or case law) that states that 10K in cash is sufficient for further investigation even if no other signs of criminality exist ? I know if you travel with over $9999.99 into the US you have to declare it, but it's still not illegal.

[Oldgringo]

I guess I can thank Richard Fuld of Lehman Bros. Holdings, Inc. afterall. He has saved me the worry of carrying too much cash. DRTJB!

[seamusTX]

So if you have over 10k of cash you are ASSUMED guilty.. isn't that the other way around.. wouldn't it have to be proved to be illegally obtained to reach that conclusion.

It's a civil forfeiture, so the government is not required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you obtained the money illegally.

Courts have upheld this business. Some Congressmen have introduced bills to stop it, but none have become law (AFAIK).

The poster child for this kind of seizure is one Willie Jones of Nashville, Tennessee, who had $9.800 in cash income from his landscaping business seized in the 1990s. He testified before a congressional committee.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/background/forfeiture/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-ma-hy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have read about numerous other cases. Most involved immigrants who do not trust banks.

- Jim

[cbunt1]

And the most disturbing fact about Civil law is that the rights you're normally afforded (Miranda, et. al) in a criminal suit do not apply.

You don't have the "right to remain silent" (e.g. you can be compelled to testify against yourself)

You don't have the right to legal representation (e.g. if your bank accounts are seized, good luck paying attorney's fees)

You don't have the right to discovery (e.g. you don't get to see the evidence they're using against you & rebut it).

Application of Civil law with criminal penalties is especially scary....

[Rex B]

This is one of the most shameful things in our country in my opinion.
The worst case is the lady in the Northeast who suspected her child was using pot. She asked for help from the police, and voluntarily let them search the kid's room. They found pot. Then they used this civil forfeiture to take the woman's house!

If this is not a clear violation of the Constitution I don't know what is.
We should be ashamed for letting it go on this long.

[TheArmedFarmer]

While we're on the subject, I hope everyone is aware that if a person has more than $10,000 in cash in one place, it is assumed to be illegally obtained until proven otherwise.

Hmm, that's strange. Many auctions won't take a personal check and will only take cash unless they know you very well. I know a guy who carries over $20K with him to those livestock auctions. Could he find himself in a situation where he'll have to prove his innocence? That just doesn't sound right at all. What is this, Red China?

[Captain Matt]

What is this, Red China?

It's getting there.

[seamusTX]

Many auctions won't take a personal check and will only take cash unless they know you very well. I know a guy who carries over $20K with him to those livestock auctions. Could he find himself in a situation where he'll have to prove his innocence?

He conceivably could. But how often are cattle farmers on their way to an auction (generally in small town or the middle of the country) stopped and searched by the police?

It might also help to have a withdrawal slip showing that he had taken the money out of the bank. But as usual, I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

The people who get in trouble with this are those who fit a profile of a drug dealer, and do something that gives the police probable cause to search or arrest them. Or in this case, the guy actually was a drug dealer (plead guilty), so the state did not have to prove anything.

- Jim

[Keith B]

And civil forfeiture is not as easy to get as it sounds. Unless a judge wants to push the issue, it can be hard to prove. I personally know of a case where the individual spent 3 years in prison on a cocaine trafficking conviction. Just prior to being convicted, he had purchased a VERY large home, new vehicles, etc. About a year before that his business was struggling and he was on the verge of filing bankruptcy. During his time in the pen, his family lived in the house and drove the vehicles. He got out about 2 years ago and now has the house on the market and stands to come out clearing over half a million on the house.

[Liberty]

This is one of the most shameful things in our country in my opinion.
The worst case is the lady in the Northeast who suspected her child was using pot. She asked for help from the police, and voluntarily let them search the kid's room. They found pot. Then they used this civil forfeiture to take the woman's house!

If this is not a clear violation of the Constitution I don't know what is.
We should be ashamed for letting it go on this long.

Sometimes ya got to wonder just who is the bad guy, seems like more an more often it is our own Government. I knew a landlord in Massachusetts who lost his property, not because he knew he was renting to drugdealers but because the courts thought he should have known. The weird thing is none of the drugdealers ever went to jail.

[WildBill]

"Civil forfeiture" was one of those things that slipped by most of us during the Reagan era when it was used as a way to get back at the big bad drug dealers. Nobody could reasonably object to seizing of the assets of drug dealers, even without due process. After all, they sold poison to our children. It wasn't until it started to be routinely used as another unconstitutional and corrupt method to collect revenue that it became an issue with most citizens.

[WildBill]

And civil forfeiture is not as easy to get as it sounds. Unless a judge wants to push the issue, it can be hard to prove. I personally know of a case where the individual spent 3 years in prison on a cocaine trafficking conviction. Just prior to being convicted, he had purchased a VERY large home, new vehicles, etc. About a year before that his business was struggling and he was on the verge of filing bankruptcy. During his time in the pen, his family lived in the house and drove the vehicles. He got out about 2 years ago and now has the house on the market and stands to come out clearing over half a million on the house.

It sounds like he still had enough money stashed away to be able to hire some good lawyers.