Troops defy orders to put down opposition protesters...

[atxgun]

...in Madagascar.
http://www.marxist.com/madagascar-troop ... orders.htm

No, this isn't a site I frequent or have even ever heard of before following a link on another board, so don't bash me for being a commie for posting this.

On Sunday the depth of the crisis and the level of social discontent in Madagascar directly affected a group of soldiers of the Army Corps of Personnel and Administrative and Technical Services who had been ordered to move against protestors on the streets. The soldiers refused to obey orders to fire on the people and repress anti-government demonstrators. Following this, they then declared they would not obey government orders either.

As one rebel soldier stated, "We no longer take orders from our hierarchy, we are following our hearts. We were trained to protect property and citizens, not to fire at people. We are with the people."

For full disclosure I have not served in our military but from what I understand disobeying orders is a very serious thing. However disobeying orders to fire on your own people that are voicing dissent is something I can agree with.

A question to active or past servicemen: How you would you feel and how you would act given orders to fire on citizens of the country you have sworn to protect?

And of course, Thank You for your service.

[stevie_d_64]

I would not expect our law enforcment or military (if used) to not obey an order similar to this...

We all saw and got a taste of this back after Katrina...And we did not see or hear of any dissent in those ranks...But, notice who they did get to go in and do the sweeps for weapons...That will be the way they will do it...Bring in forces that are as detached as possible from the locals in an area, and have at it...

The one thing I believe we have all learned is to not be in an area like that when it does happen...But then again that may be easier said than done for some people...

Like I've said before, "Governments made and paid with paper should consider the unintended consequences of starting firestorms."

[Liberty]

I would not expect our law enforcement or military (if used) to not obey an order similar to this...

We all saw and got a taste of this back after Katrina...And we did not see or hear of any dissent in those ranks...But, notice who they did get to go in and do the sweeps for weapons...That will be the way they will do it...Bring in forces that are as detached as possible from the locals in an area, and have at it...

The one thing I believe we have all learned is to not be in an area like that when it does happen...But then again that may be easier said than done for some people...

Like I've said before, "Governments made and paid with paper should consider the unintended consequences of starting firestorms."

My military training taught me that any order to attack our own people would be illegal. and that following any illegal orders, such as that would hold me as accountable as the one giving the orders. Abu Graib is a classical example every was pretty much hung out to dry.
My experience was not with Katrina but with Ike. It wasn't the Feds or state troopers that were denying the property owners rights. It was Lyda Ann and her Police department. They denied the peasantry access to the island while we watched on TV professional cleaning crews work on Mitchell' Strand propertys. While we peasants were expected to let our pets die and salt water destroy our personal possessions.

[bdickens]

Part of the Army's annual training on the Geneva Conventions and the laws of land warfare is that soldiers are duty bound to disobey illegal and immoral orders. At least it was when I was in.

[old farmer]

Morn'
All I have to say is remember the Alamo, remember Kent State.

[stevie_d_64]

I would not expect our law enforcement or military (if used) to not obey an order similar to this...

We all saw and got a taste of this back after Katrina...And we did not see or hear of any dissent in those ranks...But, notice who they did get to go in and do the sweeps for weapons...That will be the way they will do it...Bring in forces that are as detached as possible from the locals in an area, and have at it...

The one thing I believe we have all learned is to not be in an area like that when it does happen...But then again that may be easier said than done for some people...

Like I've said before, "Governments made and paid with paper should consider the unintended consequences of starting firestorms."

My military training taught me that any order to attack our own people would be illegal. and that following any illegal orders, such as that would hold me as accountable as the one giving the orders. Abu Graib is a classical example every was pretty much hung out to dry.
My experience was not with Katrina but with Ike. It wasn't the Feds or state troopers that were denying the property owners rights. It was Lyda Ann and her Police department. They denied the peasantry access to the island while we watched on TV professional cleaning crews work on Mitchell' Strand propertys. While we peasants were expected to let our pets die and salt water destroy our personal possessions.

I understand exactly what you are saying, I agree...

Makes you wonder if Chris Stevens would have done a better job than Yarborough in the County Judge position...During a crisis like this...I believe perspective and priorities would have been handled a bit better...But then again hindsite is 20/20...

But you do see how a few law enforcement officers can be directed to do such things (right or wrong) at the behest of local elected officials...It is a difficult thing to try and wrap around sometimes...Imagine how it would (will) go when you put military forces in the mix...I still think it would be a lose-lose situation...

[Purplehood]

Part of the Army's annual training on the Geneva Conventions and the laws of land warfare is that soldiers are duty bound to disobey illegal and immoral orders. At least it was when I was in.

I spent 24 years in the Marines and Army, and had that drilled into my brain-housing group over and over. I do not believe in a minute that if you disobey an order that you consider illegal and/or immoral that you will be forgiven. I always noticed that despite the formal training and refreshers given on the subject, that there was never any specific mention given of just how one would go about defying an order that you thought was wrong. Why? Because it had never been successfully done.
All you can do is hope you don't get into a situation where someone that has authority over you doesn't force you to follow such an order.

[Liberty]

Makes you wonder if Chris Stevens would have done a better job than Yarborough in the County Judge position...During a crisis like this...I believe perspective and priorities would have been handled a bit better...But then again hindsite is 20/20...

But you do see how a few law enforcement officers can be directed to do such things (right or wrong) at the behest of local elected officials...It is a difficult thing to try and wrap around sometimes...Imagine how it would (will) go when you put military forces in the mix...I still think it would be a lose-lose situation...

Oh absolutely, and if some of the troops seem to object to the idea, Leadership can usually find someone else who might not have the same objections. I believe that soldiers have it drilled into them a little harder about disobeying an unlawful order than most police, just because of the scale that a wrong can do in the military.

I do believe that our leaders and law enforcement are smarter than NOLA was during Katrina. I don't believe many Texans would voluntarily let any LEO into their house for an illegal search and that there is a certain percentage who would stand up for their rights with deadly force. The political leaders know it, and law enforcement agencies know it. Lyda Ann set up blockades which put those who needed to return at a tactical disadvantage. She didn't seem to have any problem finding willing accomplices to keep the commoners away from their property and family members. I do know folks who were planning on running that blockade with guns drawn and they were prepared for the fight. It had the potential for being uglier than New Orleans ever was.

[bdickens]

Part of the Army's annual training on the Geneva Conventions and the laws of land warfare is that soldiers are duty bound to disobey illegal and immoral orders. At least it was when I was in.

I spent 24 years in the Marines and Army, and had that drilled into my brain-housing group over and over. I do not believe in a minute that if you disobey an order that you consider illegal and/or immoral that you will be forgiven. I always noticed that despite the formal training and refreshers given on the subject, that there was never any specific mention given of just how one would go about defying an order that you thought was wrong. Why? Because it had never been successfully done.
All you can do is hope you don't get into a situation where someone that has authority over you doesn't force you to follow such an order.

I understand what you are saying completely. The official policy is that soldiers are duty bound to disobey illegal and immoral orders. However when it comes right down to it, the individual soldier is cut from the same cloth as the rest of everyone else. How many would have the moral courage to choose the hard right over the easy wrong? Not many. I know from personal experience that you will be persecuted if you do and I never had to butt heads over anything anywhere near the kind of magnitude we are talking about.

[Liberty]

I understand what you are saying completely. The official policy is that soldiers are duty bound to disobey illegal and immoral orders. However when it comes right down to it, the individual soldier is cut from the same cloth as the rest of everyone else. How many would have the moral courage to choose the hard right over the easy wrong? Not many. I know from personal experience that you will be persecuted if you do and I never had to butt heads over anything anywhere near the kind of magnitude we are talking about.

I suspect that units as a whole would find it easier to find the courage than it is for individuals. A squad may be more likely to talk about it among themselves and disobey as a unit.

[Purplehood]

I never had to worry about it. I was on an independent 2-man team, and we always worked out stuff for ourselves. If I had been in a normal unit, I could foresee problems especially if I had been in Iraq (which I don't think we - the USA - should have been in in the first place, but that is my own personal conscience). I felt like we belonged in Afghanistan.

[poppo]

I spent 24 years in the Marines and Army, and had that drilled into my brain-housing group over and over. I do not believe in a minute that if you disobey an order that you consider illegal and/or immoral that you will be forgiven. I always noticed that despite the formal training and refreshers given on the subject, that there was never any specific mention given of just how one would go about defying an order that you thought was wrong. Why? Because it had never been successfully done.
All you can do is hope you don't get into a situation where someone that has authority over you doesn't force you to follow such an order.

I'm retired USMC and I have to disagree. Having seen first hand how the military justice system works, I feel confident that if the order was indeed illegal, that you would prevail. There are many checks and balanced built into the system to prevent injustices. And in an exteme case like being illegally ordered to fire on fellow citizens that were only protesting, I don't believe for a second that anyone would be successfully prosecuted for refusing to obey.

[poppo]

If I had been in a normal unit, I could foresee problems especially if I had been in Iraq (which I don't think we - the USA - should have been in in the first place, but that is my own personal conscience).

Not to derail this thread, but as someone who was involved in the first Gulf War, I feel that we had every legal/moral right to go in when the terms of the cease fire were repeatedly violated. It seems that many people either forgot or were unaware that there even was one (cease fire agreement).

[Purplehood]

I spent 24 years in the Marines and Army, and had that drilled into my brain-housing group over and over. I do not believe in a minute that if you disobey an order that you consider illegal and/or immoral that you will be forgiven. I always noticed that despite the formal training and refreshers given on the subject, that there was never any specific mention given of just how one would go about defying an order that you thought was wrong. Why? Because it had never been successfully done.
All you can do is hope you don't get into a situation where someone that has authority over you doesn't force you to follow such an order.

I'm retired USMC and I have to disagree. Having seen first hand how the military justice system works, I feel confident that if the order was indeed illegal, that you would prevail. There are many checks and balanced built into the system to prevent injustices. And in an exteme case like being illegally ordered to fire on fellow citizens that were only protesting, I don't believe for a second that anyone would be successfully prosecuted for refusing to obey.

I stand by my argument for the exact same reason that you give above. So I will agree to disagree.

On the subject of the first Gulf War having a bearing on the second, lets look at all the other treaty/armistice violators out there and tell me why they didn't get similar treatment. Then I might even agree with you on that issue.

[bdickens]

Yeah, and everyone who speeds doesn't get a ticket, so therefore no one who speeds should get one.