SWAT teams' standards, use, proliferation questioned.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr ... liferation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The first few sentences regarding Charles Whitman are poorly edited,
but the majority of the article may be of interest to the forum.

Charles Whitman was a Marine Corps veteran who killed multiple people
from the top of the UT Tower in Austin. IIRC it was 8/1/1966.

R. Lee Ermey, as the DI in "Full Metal Jacet", made the comment that
Whitman was a Marine with a plan. (Although it was a murderous plan).

SIA

[MadMonkey]

I just read that article this morning. I'm a fan of multiple smaller SWAT teams (quicker deployment for one thing) but I will say that some sort of standardized training plus joint training with other city/regional teams is necessary in the event that multiple teams need to work together. I'm not in law enforcement but I've done a good bit of CQB training and it's amazing how badly you work with people you don't know...

Large teams are great for large scale operations but honestly you don't need 12+ people to serve a high-risk warrant in a 3-bedroom house

[The Annoyed Man]

Large teams are great for large scale operations but honestly you don't need 12+ people to serve a high-risk warrant in a 3-bedroom house

I would say that you're for the most part correct on the need aspect, but the problem is that you often don't know what you're going to need until you get there. I'm not a cop and don't claim to be any kind of expert in the matter, but a seat of the pants guess tells me that there is probably an institutional desire to show up in such overwhelming force as to discourage any thought of armed resistance on the perpetrator's part. That actually makes some kind of sense, but I think that the answer is to have the very best advanced intelligence possible so as to best plan how to go in; then you can tailor the force to the situation. That said, you can't scale up if the situation calls for scaling up and you don't have the resources to scale up with either in place or available on rapid notice.

So for that reason, it makes sense to me to have as large a tactical response unit available as a city can afford, and then deploy them judiciously so as to use the budget wisely. For smaller towns, sharing of resources is probably the way to go. I can't even find a google reference to an "official" SWAT unit for the Grapevine PD, where I live. I have no knowledge of this, but I suspect that there are probably a number of Grapevine PD officers who operate as regular patrol officers normally, but who have specialized advanced tactical training and additional equipment in their cars who can be deployed in a SWAT scenario if one should arise. If any Grapevine area residents know more than that, please clue me in.

[MadMonkey]

I see what you're saying, but I would also think that a limited number of SWAT officers ready for quick deployment (who can be backed up by regular officers if needed) would be better than a larger SWAT force that would take significantly longer to get there. Obviously that wouldn't be an issue with a pre-planned operation; I'm thinking along the lines of a response situation (hostages, active shooter, etc).

I dunno, there are tradeoffs to every example. I do wish that more officers could (or would be interested in) receive advanced tactical training. I know it can get pretty expensive, but luckily we're seeing some departments switching over to cheap Airsoft and paintball training rather than the much more expensive Simunitions and the like. Hopefully that can open the door for better training for more officers.

Oh, and the house issue I mentioned just made me laugh because our (very) inexperienced team was clearing a building early in our CQB training and all 5 of us ended up shoulder to shoulder in a tiny closet-sized room... communication breaks down quickly in stress situations

[surprise_i'm_armed]

The Lake Cities are comprised of Lake Dallas, Hickory Creek, Corinth,
and Shady Shores. The 1st 3 all have PD's, Shady Shores contracts with
Corinth PD for protection.

The combined population for the 4 towns is roughly 32,000 people, but
even this compact area has talked of creating a SWAT team. I don't think
they ever got it together, though.

One of their training exercises concerned how to respond to an active shooter
within a building. The old scenario of making a perimeter of LEO's around the
building proved disastrous at Columbine in Colorado and the NYS center that
assisted new immigrants in English. All it did was allow the active shooter to
keep killing folks, since they weren't being slowed down by LEO's.

The newer philosopy is for LEO's to actively go into the building and engage the
shooter(s). The Lake Cities cops were advised that if the bad guy has chained the
entry doors, that they should get in their cruisers and smash through the doors in
order to allow LEO entry, followed by immediate engagement of the threat.

Hopefully this advice will never have to be used.

SIA

[MadMonkey]

I remember a few years ago when regular officers began to use those tactics. Even our little town of 4400 (La Grange) had started training for active shooter scenarios... I was happy that they were finally realizing that doing something is often better than doing nothing.

[chabouk]

The problem with the proliferation of SWAT is that they're like a really big hammer. And when your only tool is a hammer.....

Often SWAT is funded with special grants like anti-drug money. At that point they have to become self-justifying, or the money stops. They wind up being used for routine warrants where there's not a great likelihood of violence. Politicians who pay the big bucks for SWAT tools and training expect to see them used, by golly!

They also encourage a militaristic police mindset, and I don't think I need to explain why that's a bad thing.

SWAT started out as a great idea, in response to special circumstances, back in the day when most police carried a .38 with cartridges in belt loops and went entire careers without ever pulling it in the line of duty. These days, a routine patrolman carries more weapons and armor and has more backup ready to respond than when SWAT began, plus most have more tactical training. (Back when, there was zero tactical training.)

The media saturation of SWAT-style raids for warrant service has set up Mr. & Mrs. Middle America to be victims of home invasions by fake cops.

Overall, I don't like the glamorization of government guys with guns assaulting Americans in their homes, even if they are criminals.

[MadMonkey]

Very good point, I never thought of it that way. Guess I'm playing devil's advocate here

[92f-fan]

The part of the DMNews atricle that stuck out with me was the proliferation of Constables going absolutely NUTS. SWAT teams are just another example.

The same constables who have been in the news MANY times for their officers driving unregistered vehicles that came from the cars they towed, Illegal towing, illegal towing contracts, possible collusion with specific judges and many other questionable practices are the same ones who are creating SWAT teams. IMO its just a matter of time before a couple of these constables are taken down and new controls are put in place to restrict the kingdoms they are creating.