This irritates me.

[Venus Pax]

My mom works in a federal building in a downtown area. Although I've never seen the stats, I'm guessing this area has a high-crime rate.
She has considered getting a CHL in the past; I encourage it.

One thing that irritates me is that my mother, a law-abiding, tax-payer in her fifties, cannot even have a gun in her vehicle in the federal building's parking lot.
Considering the rare occurrence that CHL holders commit crimes, I think this is disgusting. I believe that any CHL holder should be able to declare his/her CHL and firearm to the marshalls at the door (nice guys, by the way), and be on their merry way.
Why hasn't the NRA taken this one up?

[seamusTX]

The NRA has been active on this issue nationally. They have successfully pushed for the right to keep firearms in parking lots on private property in a number of states. I think I've seen this item on the TSRA's agenda for the next legislative session, but I can't confirm it because their web site isn't working right now.

Federal property is another story. Firearms are prohibited on most federal property. The state cannot tell the feds what to do in this regard. The majority in Congress has not made loosening those rules a priority.

- Jim

[KBCraig]

Unless your mother's employer has a specific rule against having a firearm in the car, then the parking lot is not off limits. There is no law against it.

The ban on carry in federal facilities specifically defines "facilities" as "buildings, or parts of buildings. You don't even have to get into the argument about "lawfuly purposes": just check the law itself.

18 USC Sec. 930 01/03/05

TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS

Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal
facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly
possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous
weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility),
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
not more than 1 year, or both.

( . . . )

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term "Federal facility" means a building or part
thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal
employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing
their official duties.


The only caveat is if the building contains a federal court. Paragraph (f) allows the court to promulgate rules banning firearms from the grounds:

(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the
United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or
orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of
weapons within any building housing such court or any of its
proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.


In the interest of honesty, I must point out that there is no law against carrying in National Parks or Corps of Engineers land, either. Those agencies have used their rulemaking authority to "codify" anti-gun regulations into the Code of Federal Regulations. These rules have the weight of law. Even though Rules are not supposed to exceed the underlying law, they often do.

Kevin

[couzin]

Unless your mother's employer has a specific rule against having a firearm in the car, then the parking lot is not off limits. There is no law against it.

KB - you are incorrect and the Federally-owned parking garage is considered Federal property. Don't risk the consequences.

[Venus Pax]

There is a courtroom in the building where Mom works.
It just irritates me. I would feel better if she had a gun.

[couzin]

One thing that irritates me is that my mother, a law-abiding, tax-payer in her fifties, cannot even have a gun in her vehicle in the federal building's parking lot.

She could always park in an adjoining rental lot not Federally owned. The issue I bet is that the Fed lot is free to her - it was to us if we had another commuter with us or were high enough up the muckity-muck tree to 'deserve' our own spot. Of course - having the best in-vehicle safe you can get is a given if you intend to leave the gun in the car anytime you park a vehicle...

[seamusTX]

She could always park in an adjoining rental lot not Federally owned.

The trouble with that is having to walk from the rental lot to the office and back. If Venus is talking about the Leland federal building in Houston, the area is lousy with bums and creeps.

- Jim

[jimlongley]

. . .

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term "Federal facility" means a building or part
thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal
employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing
their official duties.. . .

Kevin

TSA told us (TSA employees) that this section of the law meant that even the parking lot (not in a building) where we parked at the airport was covered because "Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties." and this meant that CHL was not allowed. Later, when we moved to the parking garage they reiterated this rule because, and I love this particular stretch, since they were subsidizing our parking fees, they could be considered to be leasing the places where we parked.

Both were interpretations that I chose to ignore.

We were also told that, even if we were on our own time, it still applied, and to the non-secured side of the airport too, because we were still federal employees. Something else I chose to ignore.

[couzin]

I guess what I missed was the need for defense. While one couldn't 'legally' bring it into the Fed building (disregarding the probability that the Fed building in question metal detects and scans everything that comes trough the door) - a good, sharp, quick opening pocket clip knife like Kershaw or Spyderco is a potential answer as is some of the really potent OC sprays, especially the little baton like ones (spray and a useful defense tool). Barring all that, what I have taught my spousal unit beyond the ability to handle firearms is some serious self defense tactics - none of that whoooo - haaaa, hand waving stuff - we're talking pulling off ears, breaking noses and fingers, etc. Inflict some serious pain and most attackers will reconsider their approach and move on. Get her to a self defense class. You gotta start somewhere and sometimes a gun is not an easy answer.

[fm2]

I agree with you 100%, VP.

There are some trainers that cover the paradigm of criminal assault. I mean the progression from pre-assault to criminal assault and your response, verbal, empty hands, and getting your tool(stick,knife,gun) into use during the assault. I think this is where folks need to be headed if they are interested in self defense.

[KBCraig]

Unless your mother's employer has a specific rule against having a firearm in the car, then the parking lot is not off limits. There is no law against it.

KB - you are incorrect and the Federally-owned parking garage is considered Federal property. Don't risk the consequences.

Did you read the cite I quoted?

I'm very familiar with this. I'm also employed by the federal government, and for years they've posted signs warning that it is a federal felony to possess firearms (amongst other things) anywhere on the grounds.

And for years, I've been telling people it's not true.

And now, the agency is admitting that I'm right. They've proposed a Rule (currently open for public comment), seeking to codify their internal policy in the CFR. If that happens, then their rule would have the force of law (although no penalty is prescribed, making it meaningless). Unless/until that happens, it is perfectly legal to have a firearm in the parking lot at any of my agency's locations.

Kevin

[Venus Pax]

Kevin, I want to clarify what you're saying.
Can my mom have a handgun in her vehicle if she is a CHL holder and in the federal building's parking lot? (I wouldn't want her walking from a different parking lot. I think it leaves her more vulnerable.)
What law are these individuals quoting so that I can mill through it?

The recommendation for teaching her some self-defense (fingers in eyes, etc.) is a good recommendation, and I think I'll do that.

[seamusTX]

In addition to the law, your mother has to consider the terms and conditions of her employment. I work for a private employer. When I was hired I had to sit through a presentation on company policy and sign a form saying that I understood and agreed to follow it. Among the policies, I cannot bring any weapon onto company property, including the parking lot. I could and probably would be fired on the spot if I were caught doing so. I understand that I could also be charged with a misdemeanor.

I also have to agree to a search of my person, bags, or car, or be fired.

(FWIW, in seven years I have never heard of anyone being searched. I walk in and out carrying a bulky computer bag all the time. I've seen people bring in suitcases.)

- Jim

[flintknapper]

- none of that whoooo - haaaa, hand waving stuff - we're talking pulling off ears, breaking noses and fingers, etc. .

I hate it when someone pulls off my ears!

[couzin]

[quote="KBCraig]I'm very familiar with this. I'm also employed by the federal government, and for years they've posted signs warning that it is a federal felony to possess firearms (amongst other things) anywhere on the grounds. ... And for years, I've been telling people it's not true..[/quote]

Still disagree - and I guess a case in court similar to US vs Murray, but with a permitted concealed carry license holder will settle it. I also think the Gov probably has a broader interpretation of "or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building" than possibly you do.

[quote="KBCraig]And now, the agency is admitting that I'm right. They've proposed a Rule (currently open for public comment)[/quote]

I am interested in this - do you have the FR reference. You are correct that the agencies can and do use the CFRs to set the rules. Title 18 sec 930 has always been subject to some interpretation - although, as pointed out, I don't think anyone has tried the system and won yet.

[quote="KBCraig]...it is perfectly legal to have a firearm in the parking lot at any of my agency's locations[/quote]

Again, possibly depends on who you work for and if the building is a single occupier or you are working for the Feds in some forward office away from the flagpole where the rules are a little bit lax or relaxed. Most 'downtown' Federal buildings have multiple agency tenants therefore a single agency CFR cannot apply to all. The Fed parking garage in Fort Worth has FPOs at the entrances most of the time, doors down and passkey coded the rest of the time, and signs that vehicles are indeed subject to search - then there are the signs from the 1990 et seq to 18-930 also posted there.

I think the issue still remains, Federal buildings, and appurtenances, do not permit the carrying or possesstion of firearms - despite what indivdual interpretations of the law are available or that the State has equipped certain individuals with a possible 'lawful purpose' component. That component does not automatically equate into authority to engage in the conduct that has been identifed as against a Federal law until it is settled by a court or by congressional action -- IMHO.