Carrying at School Function?

[Outbreaker]

My wife and I will be chaparoneing the prom for a local High School. It will be at a hotel (not school property) but it is obviously a school function......but not a sporting event. Is it legal to carry?

[longtooth]

No sir. off campus School sponsored events are a no carry.
Wish it were not so.

[dicion]

I disagree.

If you are riding there in a school bus, then correct, you cannot carry. If you are Simply meeting there, and it is not school property, then I believe carry is legal.

The basis of my opinion:
http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 33#p287208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[shootthesheet]

No, it is not legal in my opinion but it should be. If the OP is willing to risk money and freedom on the chance they could win I welcome it so the rest of us will know for sure. Concealed means concealed.

[dicion]

No, it is not legal in my opinion but it should be. If the OP is willing to risk money and freedom on the chance they could win I welcome it so the rest of us will know for sure. Concealed means concealed.

Did you even read my reference?

Charles himself has said that in his opinion, it is not illegal.

That's about as good enough for me as it gets without case law on it.


Put another way... Does the hotel hosting the school function make carry there illegal for any and all other guests that may be staying there in the hotel that evening? How are they to know? You could claim that only the room that the prom is in is off-limits, but what If the prom uses some 'common areas' of the Hotel, where other guests may be as well?
Charles' explanation is the most simple, and it makes the most sense.

[karl]

TPC §46.03
Sec. 46.03.AAPLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):

(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution

Seems pretty clear to me, especially if you are a chaperone attending the event in question.

[Keith B]

TPC §46.03
Sec. 46.03.AAPLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):

(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution

Seems pretty clear to me, especially if you are a chaperone attending the event in question.

I think this is the kicker. Charles can correct me if I am wrong with the interpretation, but I believe his view was that a school sponsored event showing up at a museum or mall did not make it off limits. HOWEVER, if you are part of the event and participating at that level, I believe you would have a hard time convincing the judge or jury it was not a school sponsored event you were at. The one gray-ish area I see is something like a band concert your kid is part of and you go just to hear the concert. While you are listening, you are not a part of the event itself.

Bottom line, my personal guideline is if you are going to the school sponsored event to participate or interact with it, leave the gun at home or in the car.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

Also, I have heard (cannot confirm nor deny) that you can ask permission from the school if you are a chaperone and if they grant it you are ok. Again, I have only heard this and IANAL so in reality I have no clue.

[longtooth]

No sir. off campus School sponsored events are a no carry.
Wish it were not so.

Told ya.

[dicion]

I think this is the kicker. Charles can correct me if I am wrong with the interpretation, but I believe his view was that a school sponsored event showing up at a museum or mall did not make it off limits. HOWEVER, if you are part of the event and participating at that level, I believe you would have a hard time convincing the judge or jury it was not a school sponsored event you were at.

I still disagree.

I am not denying that it is a school sponsored event. It obviously is, that is not what I would be attempting to convince a judge.

Charles' argument was that the entirety of 46.03(a)(1) has no weight over any such activity once it is off of property owned by the school.
Mainly because the school has no authority to grant permission to carry off of it's own property.

CHL law is 98% location, not vocation at the time. The two exceptions are carrying while intoxicated, and intentional failure to conceal. These apply anywhere.
Every other CHL restriction is based on location alone. Doesn't matter if you are a tourist, working there, etc. Remove the location restriction, as Charles stating 46.03(a)(1) being invalid does, and there is no reason why carry would be illegal anymore.

There is nowhere in CHL law where it states it is illegal to carry while working for, or volunteering for a school.

Think of it this way. Could the school legally ask someone to leave the hotel for disorderly conduct? The answer is no, they would have to ask the Hotel to ask them to leave, as the Hotel is the owner of the property. In the same vein, the School cannot grant any permissions on the property without the consent of the Hotel as well.

[dicion]

Also, I have heard (cannot confirm nor deny) that you can ask permission from the school if you are a chaperone and if they grant it you are ok. Again, I have only heard this and IANAL so in reality I have no clue.

Once again. The school cannot grant authority over property it does not control. It cannot grant you permission to carry as a chaperone on non-school property. This is Charles' #1 Arguement as to why 46.03(a)(1) does not apply off of school owned property.

Said another way, for all places that are covered under 46.03(a)(1), the school has the authority to grant permission to carry.
So if they cannot grant permission to carry (due to not having authority over the property), then it cannot be a place covered under 46.03(a)(1)

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

I think this is the kicker. Charles can correct me if I am wrong with the interpretation, but I believe his view was that a school sponsored event showing up at a museum or mall did not make it off limits. HOWEVER, if you are part of the event and participating at that level, I believe you would have a hard time convincing the judge or jury it was not a school sponsored event you were at.

I still disagree.

I am not denying that it is a school sponsored event. It obviously is, that is not what I would be attempting to convince a judge.

Charles' argument was that the entirety of 46.03(a)(1) has no weight over any such activity once it is off of property owned by the school.
Mainly because the school has no authority to grant permission to carry off of it's own property.

CHL law is 98% location, not vocation at the time. The two exceptions are carrying while intoxicated, and intentional failure to conceal. These apply anywhere.
Every other CHL restriction is based on location alone. Doesn't matter if you are a tourist, working there, etc. Remove the location restriction, as Charles stating 46.03(a)(1) being invalid does, and there is no reason why carry would be illegal anymore.

There is nowhere in CHL law where it states it is illegal to carry while working for, or volunteering for a school.

Think of it this way. Could the school legally ask someone to leave the hotel for disorderly conduct? The answer is no, they would have to ask the Hotel to ask them to leave, as the Hotel is the owner of the property. In the same vein, the School cannot grant any permissions on the property without the consent of the Hotel as well.

The school cannot ask you to leave the hotel and the hotel is not off limits. But the people that are "participating" in the school sponsored event are, IMO, off limits to carrying.

[dicion]

The school cannot ask you to leave the hotel and the hotel is not off limits. But the people that are "participating" in the school sponsored event are, IMO, off limits to carrying.

How? Under what statute? Participation is not mentioned anywhere in the statutes. If the property is not off limits to CHL, that is the end all, be all.
If this were true, than it would be illegal for teachers to have guns in their cars in school parking lots, since they're 'working for the school'.

I agree, the school would most likely not be pleased, and probably 'fire' them from their position as a chaperone if they found out.
But as we have stated many times before, firable is completely different than illegal.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

TPC §46.03
Sec. 46.03.AAPLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):

(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution

This one

[dicion]

TPC §46.03
Sec. 46.03.AAPLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):

(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution

This one

Which I, and Charles, have specifically stated, that, in his opinion, does not apply off of school owned property.

Once again. The school cannot grant authority over property it does not control. It cannot grant you permission to carry as a chaperone on non-school property. This is Charles' #1 Arguement as to why 46.03(a)(1) does not apply off of school owned property.

Said another way, for all places that are covered under 46.03(a)(1), the school has the authority to grant permission to carry.
So if they cannot grant permission to carry (due to not having authority over the property), then it cannot be a place covered under 46.03(a)(1)

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 33#p287208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, it is my opinion that TPC §46.03(a)(1) makes it clear that the "grounds" or "building[s]" where the school sponsored activities are conducted must be owned by the school.
...
Every provision in TPC §46.03(a)(1) can be harmonized, but only by applying it solely to property owned by the school.

Now, I ask. Is the Hotel owned by the school?
No.
Therefore, 46.03(a)(1) Does not apply at all at that location.

Find another statute that prevents carry in this situation, and I will gladly debate or concede it.For example, a 30.06 sign at the Hotel would be a completely different matter entirely.