Once a school, always a school?

[chasfm11]

I've tried several different searches on this topic and not found an answer. If I missed a thread that answers my question, I'd be happy if someone can point to it.

I support my church in many ways. I repair the lawn equipment used to maintain the grounds and, from time to time, I get called for handiman chores inside. Today, and for the first time since I've had my plastic, I was called to work on a failing door knob. The problem was that the door was in the section of the church that is used for a nursery school. Since I wasn't sure, I locked my gun in the safe in my car and completed the repair. Although the school is over at 12pm and I didn't arrive until 2pm, I figured that it is potentially still a school and off limits to me if I'm armedn - and I was.

Question: does "school" apply only to a normal education setting, public or private or would it apply to anywhere where kids are present? Our granddaughter attends an private after school care facility which I'll assume is still a school for CHL purposes.

Carrying that one step further, our church is inter-connected. The classrooms used in the daycare run all the way to the sancuary. The church is not 30.06 posted. Question: is there an implied posting because a nursery school exists there during the weekdays?

Yes, I know that I'm splitting hairs but I'm still curious.

Edited for a typo in the title.

[dicion]

I've tried several different searches on this topic and not found an answer. If I missed a thread that answers my question, I'd be happy if someone can point to it.

I support my church in many ways. I repair the lawn equipment used to maintain the grounds and, from time to time, I get called for handiman chores inside. Today, and for the first time since I've had my plastic, I was called to work on a failing door knob. The problem was that the door was in the section of the church that is used for a nursery school. Since I wasn't sure, I locked my gun in the safe in my car and completed the repair. Although the school is over at 12pm and I didn't arrive until 2pm, I figured that it is potentially still a school and off limits to me if I'm armedn - and I was.

Question: does "school" apply only to a normal education setting, public or private or would it apply to anywhere where kids are present? Our granddaughter attends an private after school care facility which I'll assume is still a school for CHL purposes.

Carrying that one step further, our church is inter-connected. The classrooms used in the daycare run all the way to the sancuary. The church is not 30.06 posted. Question: is there an implied posting because a nursery school exists there during the weekdays?

Yes, I know that I'm splitting hairs but I'm still curious.

Edited for a typo in the title.

The 'general consensus' of past arguments on the forums, in which multiple LEO have given their opinion, is that a 'nursery school' 'day care', 'sunday school' or any other kind of pre-primary education does not fall within the definition of 'school' for CHL purposes. Only Primary Schools Schools with Grades, High Schools, Colleges and Universities count.

Now IANAL, there is no case law, and 'School' is undefined in the statutes, so technically, a judge or jury could go anywhere with it. This is just what has been reached as a 'general consensus' by the members of this forum in the past.

The question is, where does it end? If a day-care is included, what about a Ballet School? What about any other place that offers a 'class' about anything? Is Home Depot off limits if they do a painting class in it?

This is why a definition of 'School' is high on the list of things I'd like to see fixed in the statutes. That, and definition of 'Professional'.
Or, just plain remove the restrictions on carry in a school altogether!

[chasfm11]

This is why a definition of 'School' is high on the list of things I'd like to see fixed in the statutes. That, and definition of 'Professional'.
Or, just plain remove the restrictions on carry in a school altogether!

Thanks for recapping the past discussions on this subject. It is when the definitions are not clear that the application of the law becomes difficult.

[Purplehood]

I apologize in advance for stating the obvious.

One should be able to carry in a school.

[jamisjockey]

I would assume that its anything regulated by TEA. IMHO, INAL, and YMMV, but I think a very good case could be made in your favor if its not an actual school and daycare hours are over anyways.
Of course, if you get caught twisting in the wind, you're at the mercy of the Officer/DA/Grand Jury/Judge/Jury....to paraphrase Mr. Cotton "You don't want to be on the cutting edge of the law where people bleed to death financially..."

[chasfm11]

I would assume that its anything regulated by TEA. IMHO, INAL, and YMMV, but I think a very good case could be made in your favor if its not an actual school and daycare hours are over anyways.
Of course, if you get caught twisting in the wind, you're at the mercy of the Officer/DA/Grand Jury/Judge/Jury....to paraphrase Mr. Cotton "You don't want to be on the cutting edge of the law where people bleed to death financially..."

Exactly. Concealed is concealed and I had on a very good cover shirt yesterday but I was in among the teachers while I worked (the kids were long gone) and I have no idea if there are antis in that group.

What is interesting is that the nursery school was burglarized a few weeks ago. Fortunately, there was no one there at the time. Yes, in our supposedly quiet community, in a building attached to a church where there is normally a lot of activity, a BG broken in and took some things. I sure would hate to look up from the door knob task and be starting at the barrel of a BG's gun, knowing that mine was locked in the car 30 feet away. OTOH, I don't want to take a ride and drain my bank account either.


Edit: corrected inaccurate use of the word robbery.

[sjfcontrol]

What is interesting is that the nursery school was robbed a few weeks ago. Fortunately, there was no one there at the time.

It's a minor point, but you can't "rob" an empty building. It was burglarized.
Robbery is theft using force (assault). Burglary is a breaking-in in order to commit some other crime (theft in this case).

[chasfm11]

What is interesting is that the nursery school was robbed a few weeks ago. Fortunately, there was no one there at the time.

It's a minor point, but you can't "rob" an empty building. It was burglarized.
Robbery is theft using force (assault). Burglary is a breaking-in in order to commit some other crime (theft in this case).

Sorry, I should know better. Our daughter, a police dispatcher, has corrected me on this point before. Old, bad habits sometimes take a while to break.

[Dragonfighter]

Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):

(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;

AND

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.<SNIP>

(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
...(f)3. (3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

AND now we get to it.

Sec. 46.11. PENALTY IF OFFENSE COMMITTED WITHIN WEAPON-FREE SCHOOL ZONE. (a) Except as provided by Subsection (b), the punishment prescribed for an offense under this chapter is increased to the punishment prescribed for the next highest category of offense if it is shown beyond a reasonable doubt on the trial of the offense that the actor committed the offense in a place that the actor knew was:
<SNIP>
(b) This section does not apply to an offense under Section 46.03(a)(1).

(c) In this section:

(1) "Institution of higher education" and "premises" have the meanings assigned by Section 481.134, Health and Safety Code.

(2) "School" means a private or public elementary or secondary school.

Then there's

HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE

TITLE 6.

(2) "Institution of higher education" means any public or private technical institute, junior college, senior college or university, medical or dental unit, or other agency of higher education as defined by Section 61.003, Education Code.
<SNIP>
(5) "School" means a private or public elementary or secondary school or a day-care center, as defined by Section 42.002, Human Resources Code.

And Finally:

HUMAN RESOURCES CODE
TITLE 2. DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SERVICES ...
SUBTITLE D.
CHAPTER 42.
Sec. 42.002. DEFINITIONS.

(3) "Child-care facility" means a facility licensed, certified, or registered by the department to provide assessment, care, training, education, custody, treatment, or supervision for a child who is not related by blood, marriage, or adoption to the owner or operator of the facility, for all or part of the 24-hour day, whether or not the facility is operated for profit or charges for the services it offers.

Where does this leave us. Section 46 of the Penal Code has a straightforward definition but a cross reference chain can lead us into a debacle if we don't chase rabbits and a creative anti DA decides to throw his or her weight around.

One question that may be valid is whether your on the premises of a day care or is the daycare on the premises of the church where it is not otherwise restricted. Home schools fall under the "private" schools in Texas and I have written up a policy, should I ever have to pass one through the door. Weird I know.

This all boils down to one thing...let's get the law changed now. The iron is hot.

IMHO, you are, for all practical purposes, okay.

[chasfm11]

IMHO, you are, for all practical purposes, okay.

Thanks for the detailed input, Dragonfigher. I read most of that prior to my post - which is why I decided to create the thread in the first place. I agree I should be OK.

I've come to believe that there are several circumstances like this one which include PDs enforcing an invalid sign, CHLs being arrested for printing, etc. I guess those are just some of the risks that we all have to accept in order to exercise our 2nd amendment rights. One of the things that we have to try to do is to keep anti biased DAs out of office. I'm not quite sure exactly how we can do that.

[jamisjockey]

(2) "School" means a private or public elementary or secondary school.


I think that right there settles it.

Nice work dragonfighter!

[dicion]

(2) "School" means a private or public elementary or secondary school.


I think that right there settles our.

Nice work dragonfighter!

unfortunately, it does not. It specifically states ' in this section', which is not section 46.03. So that definition does not specifically apply to 46.03. It will be useful in a jury trial for sure, showing a definition elsewhere in the penal code, but it is not black and white like that.