ANOTHER 51% SIGN QUESTION

[NavyGunner]

Went into BooRay's on Fort Worth Hwy in Weatherford (Hudson Oaks) today for lunch and spoted a zerox copy of a 51% sign behind the bar after I had been there a while, definitely not displayed in clear view and NO WAY possible that it could be seen from the entrance of the restuarant; didn't spot another sign any where in the place and nothing in the entrance area or on the doors. I looked up the info on their license (N519464 subordinate PE) and couldn't tell whether or not it should be red or blue. I've never noticed another place with a zerox copy, is this an enforceable sign? By the way, I didn't bother to ask the manager about the sign nor did I get up and leave until I was done with my oyster poboy (excellent too). My gut says the sign isn't any good but I've been wrong before. What's your take on it?

[Beiruty]

I believe that the 51% should be at the entrance not behind the bar. For me, I would leave the place and may not come back there.

Maybe 2 "entities" n one large hall?

[MoJo]

Gut feeling it isn't legit but - - - - - 51% is 51% Report it to the TABC and let them sort it out. I wouldn't go back in carrying until it's cleared up.

[Scott in Houston]

Also, isn't it on 'us' as CHL's to know? In other words, if it's a 51% location and it's not posted, we're still illegally carrying if we enter such a place and don't leave.

I know this doesn't necessarily apply to your scenario since yours is the opposite, but it's always safe to assume the worst (51%) until proven otherwise.

[cbr600]

Also, isn't it on 'us' as CHL's to know? In other words, if it's a 51% location and it's not posted, we're still illegally carrying if we enter such a place and don't leave.

"It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code."

[RiverCity.45]

Also, isn't it on 'us' as CHL's to know? In other words, if it's a 51% location and it's not posted, we're still illegally carrying if we enter such a place and don't leave.

"It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code."

A "defense to prosecution" does not mean it is not illegal. It's an affirmative defense that can be used in an effort to reduce the impact of the charge--if the finder of fact accepts the defense. Don't bet your house that charges will be dismissed entirely by whipping out this defense. You may find a judge who believes that you should have known it was illegal to carry at the location--posted or not.

[Beiruty]

Also, isn't it on 'us' as CHL's to know? In other words, if it's a 51% location and it's not posted, we're still illegally carrying if we enter such a place and don't leave.

"It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code."

A "defense to prosecution" does not mean it is not illegal. It's an affirmative defense that can be used in an effort to reduce the impact of the charge--if the finder of fact accepts the defense. Don't bet your house that charges will be dismissed entirely by whipping out this defense. You may find a judge who believes that you should have known it was illegal to carry at the location--posted or not.

Where do you guys come with those explanation?

You enter a restaurant that has a bar and most likely it is not a 51% establishment, and no such sign nor a 30.06 notice. It is legal to carry regardless if there is a bar selling booze. I do it all the time with no hesitation. I never consumed alcohol ever!

[Scott in Houston]

Where do you guys come with those explanation?

You enter a restaurant that has a bar and most likely it is not a 51% establishment, and no such sign nor a 30.06 notice. It is legal to carry regardless if there is a bar selling booze. I do it all the time with no hesitation. I never consumed alcohol ever!

I'm not talking about a "restaurant that has a bar" (most by far and away aren't 51% establishments)... I'm talking about a 51% establishment which is usually just a bar or place that obviously sells a lot of alcohol, regardless of sign posted, if it's defined as 51% by the TABC, you cannot carry legally, even if they fail to post a sign.
I'm 51% sure that I'm right on this.

[Beiruty]

if it is a bar only CHLer has no business to be there armed that obvious. If he entered and found out it is just bar, better to leave pronto.

[Scott in Houston]

if it is a bar only CHLer has no business to be there armed that obvious. If he entered and found out it is just bar, better to leave pronto.

That is my point. It's on you, not the owner to post a sign.

I recently went to a place in Houston called SRO. It's a sports bar, but serves a lot of food. Champs Americana can be seen as a competitor. Champs is not 51%.
SRO is. The 51% sign was not obvious or posted anywhere near the door. Luckily, I specifically went to look for it around the bar area, and found it.
I then left and came back in. I asked the manager to move the sign near the door so others wouldn't mistakenly carry there, and they did.

Had I stayed there, even without the sign, and even though it's not an 'obvious' 51% location, I could have been in real trouble.

[srothstein]

Where do you guys come with those explanation?

Usually, I come up with them from the law itself. Others may have different answers, of course. One of my pet peeves is that reasonable people can read the same law and have disagreements on what it means. Laws should be clear to the average person they are intended to govern.

You enter a restaurant that has a bar and most likely it is not a 51% establishment, and no such sign nor a 30.06 notice. It is legal to carry regardless if there is a bar selling booze.

This is not true. There are many places where it does not appear to be the traditional "bar" and it is illegal to carry weapons because of their TABC license. One of the major problems is that we all generally think if the bar is 51% it is illegal, but the truth is that the law says it is illegal if TABC determines the location is 51%. This is a fine difference to be sure, but I have previously mentioned my disagreements with the way TABC determines 51%. The biggest disagreement is that TABC does not ask if the alcohol sales are for on or off premise consumption, leading to a wine tasting stores that have 51% signs AS DETERMINED BY TABC but do not truly get the 51% from on premise consumption sales. More of the wine is sold by the bottle for off-premise consumption, but TABC did not ask and 51% of the total sales are for alcoholic beverages. A second example is the bar inside a sporting facility where the license covers the whole premise but the 51% question was based on the bar only. Sure, the bar is 51% on premise consumption but the bowling alley is way over 51% from other sales. But TABC issued the license as 51% and covered the whole premise.

And the way the law is now, it is up to us to know if it is determined by TABC, regardless of the sign or general appearance. The lack of the properly posted sign is a defense that may help, but the appearance (say the bowling alley) is not even a defense. I doubt the problem is likely to ever truly bite anyone, but it certainly could.

[cbr600]

That is my point. It's on you, not the owner to post a sign.

The business is required by law to post the sign. I have no obligation, nor authority, to post the sign for them.

Sec. 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).

(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

[Scott in Houston]

That is my point. It's on you, not the owner to post a sign.

The business is required by law to post the sign. I have no obligation, nor authority, to post the sign for them.

No you don't have to post for them, but you're missing the point. You can still get arrested and charged if they fail to post, and the fact that the business didn't follow the law will likely not help you.

It's still your responsibility to verify and/or 'know' whether it's an establishment that is 51% or not at the end of the day.

[cbr600]

No you don't have to post for them, but you're missing the point. You can still get arrested and charged if they fail to post, and the fact that the business didn't follow the law will likely not help you.

People are arrested and charged with crimes they didn't commit. It happens. I don't dispute that.

However, I'm curious about your comment that a defense to prosecution will likely not help. On what do you base that legal advice? It could be very important to anyone in Texas who has a NFA registered firearm.

"It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended." (TPC 46.05)

[Seabear]

The easiest way to tell what the sign should be is to look at their TABC Permit. Right in the middle of it sits your answer. The typed words will be either Sign=Red or Sign=Blue.

Red is 51%, the blue one is " The unlicensed carry......"

I find bad signage everywhere, as well as wrong determinations from TABC. I choose to make it my responsibility to check. 10 Years in prison and $10,000 is a lot to risk.