My TSA Diatribe

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terryg
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My TSA Diatribe

Post by terryg »

Benjamin Franklin is credited with several forms of the following quote: "Those that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Yet we do choose, on a daily basis, to make this trade – don’t we? We allow restrictions on our free speech for certain reasons. We allow unwarranted searches as long as there are ‘exigent’ circumstances involved. The real question is where do we strike the balance? At what point does this exchange go too far in eroding our liberties? Do the new TSA screening procedures seek to make a trade with us that is so unbalanced as to be more dangerous than the risk they are intended to protect against?

I am not much for conspiracy theories and I don’t put a lot of stock in claims that the TSA or the government is intentionally attempting anything nefarious. When Secretary Napolitano and TSA Chief Pistole tell us that these measures are intended to keep us safe – I have no reason to doubt these claims. Some argue that the new measures are ineffective at accomplishing this goal. Perhaps, but even that assertion is not the primary concern.

No, the primary concern is one of acceptance. It is the ‘cooking of the frog’ scenario. No matter how well intentioned the initial purpose may be - if they are allowed to continue, these invasive and unwarranted searches (and by definition they are unwarranted) will become accepted. It will be the new normal - all in the name of flight security. What will undoubtedly follow in our children’s lifetime is the expansion of these technologies and procedures to other ‘risky’ aspects of life. It will be a natural extension to see them anywhere and everywhere people gather in mass – stadiums, malls, office buildings, etc.

Once we become used to plodding through these scanners - trusting the government to keep us safe - why wouldn’t the government use these to keep us safe from other evils? Catching those transporting drugs? – well of course! Is that a Bible? Or a Koran? Is that anti-government/anarchist propaganda in your back pocket?

Maybe this is a stretch. Maybe. But the fourth amendment exists for a reason and it has served us very well for over two centuries. It is not worth abandoning just because the terrorists have figured out clever ways to kill us.

It does not matter that they are just trying to keep the public safe. It does not matter if these methods are more effective than others or if they are not. What matters is that the potential consequences for allowing this change in the relationship between the government and the governed are so grave. Could this be the biggest step toward a police state that we have ever seen in our country? Will it be welcomed with applause because we feel a little bit safer while sitting in our airplane seats? The ends do not justify the means.

I heard a news commentator state that our servicemen and women are fighting with their very lives to keep us safe and yet we cannot tolerate a little inconvenience in an effort to do the same. But these brave men and women are risking their lives to protect ALL of our freedoms. I think a far worse tragedy would be for our fighting men and women to return home to a country resembling a high tech version of the evil they have been combating.

:patriot:

Edited for grammar.
Last edited by terryg on Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by kahrfreak »

This is the very reason why I've chosen not to fly since 9/11 (unless I fly myself). Those who do choose to fly implicitly support this gradual slide towards a police state. I simply refuse to be a part of it.
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baldeagle
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by baldeagle »

Why is it the government's responsibility to conduct security searches at the airport?

Why isn't it the responsibility of the airlines to convince their passengers that their flights are safe to fly on?

Why isn't it the responsibility of the airport authority to convince the public that their terminals are safe to enter and do business in?

Answer those questions and you might begin to understand the intrusive nature of full body scans and pat downs of private parts. Would you tolerate that from a business? Or would you find a different company to do business with?

I choose not to fly. I fully understand that some people don't have that option.
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Beiruty
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by Beiruty »

I listened to a very good NPR talk show about this subject.

Experts agree:
1) The TSA is conducting a "theater" of security measures, to prove that they are doing something or to their best ability to screen passengers and avoid airplane hijacking.
2) The serening procedures are introduced reactively to prior events.
3) the serening is not very effective for imagined and hard to detect terrorist acts that can bypass existing security measure. Example, underwear bomb and the body cavity bombs and in the future implanted bombs (all of this were openly discussed on the air)
4) terrorists are observing, testing, and bypassing or avoiding existing security measures.
5) Security measures are VERY VERY expensive.

However, the hard measures introduced resulting in a fact that hijacking airplanes is very tough and not feasible. One major reason cited, a hijacker would beaten till death on any airplane!
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by The Annoyed Man »

El Al has a very good safety record, and they do not use backscatter x-ray, and they rarely use invasive pat-downs.

Their secret? They unapologetically profile. But it isn't just the crude profiling we think of today. It is rather that they have very well trained profilers who scan the passengers in the lines, looking for anything that sets off their spidey sense. When a passenger draws their attention, that passenger is subjected to an intensive interview. At least that is how I understand it.

I saw a joke the other day somewhere about a new Israeli security machine in the shape of a large, armored steel box. All passengers are required to walk through it, carrying their luggage with them. If there are any explosives anywhere in their luggage or on their person, the box detects it and detonates the explosives. Nothing bad gets aboard the plane, and justice is instant.
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by karl »

Very interesting read, I haven't given this topic much thought recently, been a while since I've read 1984.
baldeagle wrote:Why is it the government's responsibility to conduct security searches at the airport?

Why isn't it the responsibility of the airlines to convince their passengers that their flights are safe to fly on?

Why isn't it the responsibility of the airport authority to convince the public that their terminals are safe to enter and do business in?

Answer those questions and you might begin to understand the intrusive nature of full body scans and pat downs of private parts. Would you tolerate that from a business? Or would you find a different company to do business with?

I choose not to fly. I fully understand that some people don't have that option.
You'll find the answer to those questions in the Constitution, Article 1 section 8:
The congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States...
The important question still remains, how far is too far?
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere. -Thomas Jefferson
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by jimlongley »

Beiruty wrote:I listened to a very good NPR talk show about this subject.

Experts agree:
1) The TSA is conducting a "theater" of security measures, to prove that they are doing something or to their best ability to screen passengers and avoid airplane hijacking.
2) The serening procedures are introduced reactively to prior events.
3) the serening is not very effective for imagined and hard to detect terrorist acts that can bypass existing security measure. Example, underwear bomb and the body cavity bombs and in the future implanted bombs (all of this were openly discussed on the air)
4) terrorists are observing, testing, and bypassing or avoiding existing security measures.
5) Security measures are VERY VERY expensive.

However, the hard measures introduced resulting in a fact that hijacking airplanes is very tough and not feasible. One major reason cited, a hijacker would beaten till death on any airplane!
As a long time, although no longer emplyed there; "TSA Thug" as someone called me in a different thread, I have to agree, particularly with point 4. Part of my job, for a while, was testing other airports, and I was able to take a .380 through passenger screening 7 times out of 10 tries, and I wasn't even trying very hard.

That said, those who call us, the laid off engineers, retired military, and various other professionals who, due to economic necessity or other factors, found ourselves vastly underemployed at TSA; "Thugs" need to put yourselves in our shoes for a while before calling us names.

I don't know one TSA screener that enjoys patting down a few hundred people a day while being blamed for all of the ills of airline travel - we are there to do a job, a job dictated by YOUR politicians, not by us, and believe me, we know how ineffective pat downs can be.

All TSA pat downs are conducted by same gender personnel, not to say some of them are not gender switchers, and without liberal application of drinking alcohol I don't know any who really enjoy even the prospect, much less the act, of feeling up our fellow man or woman right out there in public while suffering the slings and arrows of the unknowing, and often unwashed, traveling public.

And while I suppose that there might be some twisted souls out there who could raise some sort of reaction to the backscatter pictures, if you really consider what the screeners are looking at, what they are looking for, and how many of those pictures per shift they have to examine, I have to think that the "porn" aspect is only in the twisted minds of those who want to find something to criticize about TSA.

So gripe, abuse, and threaten all you want, but all you are really doing is making it worse for yourselves, because the average screener pretty much agrees with the evaluation that TSA is reactive and pat downs are invasive, but thinks that you are being idiots by objecting to backscatter while getting ready to take a higher dose of radiation while flying on a plane, and every little noise you make while in line merely strengthens their resolve to make the process as uncomfortable for you as it is for them.

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stevie_d_64
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by stevie_d_64 »

Been a long time since I rock and rolled, but here goes... ;-)

The wife and a teaching buddy of hers are going to make a road trip next summer to the wilds of Minnestota...St. Paul area if I am correct...Along the way they are goign to "drive" through a various gaggle of sights and experiences for their summer vacation...

Now that I am working, woo hoo, ok, thats that...I and the teaching buddy's husband and I are planning to fly up and meet them...He's a great guy and a newbie to the whole concealed carry and RKBA's idea...But he is a quick study,and since I can only take on one Padawan learner at a time per the Jedi code, hopefully be the time we are in the air he will have achieved the goal of CHL'er and have passed the trials and received his plastic before the trip...

Now, since we are all up in arms about the "new" groping and irradiating by our buddies at the TSA, my concern is that when I check in my firearm, will that guarantee me a place in line to be scrutinized beyond a reasonable amount, JUST BECAUSE I DECLARED A FIREARM TO TRAVEL IN MY CHECKED BAGGAGE???

I have a sneeky feeling this will be the case...Will I protest and try to "Opt Out"??? Prolly not...

But wouldn't it be interesting to propose a solution, and the solution is not an new idea...Since we have passed a Federal and State background check, and have no felonies or other "show stoppers" to obtain our permission slips to carry, per the law of the land...How interesting would it be to be able to "opt out" of anything other than the traditional screening and proceed on our way to the gate and our flights???

Just thought I would float this out there and see what y'all think...

I believe this idea to be a fiar and reasonable solution to those of us who have jumped through the firery hoops to be trusted enough by our government to take our self-defense seriously enough to do what they want us to do to exercise a Constitutional right...

Might as well see what we can do to exploit the system...Nothing wrong with that, right??? Pilots and certain other "demographics" are given a pass already in this latest example of idiocy promoted by our government...Might as well see if we can get on that gravy train...

Just my opinion...
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Beiruty
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by Beiruty »

Since I neveer asked.

When you check a firarm, are you allowed to check in ammo too? is there a limit on the ammount of ammo you can check in?
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by sjfcontrol »

Stevie
Part of the problem with allowing any group preferential access to a secured area (such as an airliner, or any other sensitive area), is that then that group becomes a target for the bad-guys. Either by attempting to enter that group, attempting to recruit that group, or attempting to subvert that group.

This is one of the reasons why initially, even airline pilots were required to go thru the screenings. Although it is unlike that an Al Qaida operative would attempt to (or even be able to) become an airline pilot, they certainly might be able to pass a background check to get a CHL, especially if you consider the presence of "home-grown" terrorists.

And beside that, then you also have the concern that a current CHL holder might be able to be recruited (unlikely, maybe, but not impossible), or might be able to be threatened (force used against family members, for example) into performing actions dictated by the terrorists.

A MUCH better solution is to use the Israeli methods of profiling to determine who is up to no good. It has numerous advantages. It requires NO invasive techniques (at least not for the vast majority of "good-guy" travelers). It doesn't need to be reactive to prior attempts (i.e., requiring restrictions on liquids and gels), and is a proven-successful technique. The problem is that it requires some significant training, and cannot be done by the typical TSA drones. Another disadvantage is that it doesn't LOOK like what people think of as security. It doesn't make good "security theater", which is needed by the TSA to "prove" they're doing a good job!
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

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Beiruty wrote:Since I neveer asked.

When you check a firarm, are you allowed to check in ammo too? is there a limit on the ammount of ammo you can check in?
Yes. You can pack ammo with your checked firearm (unless your specific airline has rules against it). But it must be packed in "approved" containers. Magazines are not "approved" containers, but the cardboard box that the ammo comes in is. It also must not be packed "loose" or in bags. I believe they want to make sure nothing touches the primer. There are no limits to amount of ammo, but the airline may limit amount based on weight.
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by stevie_d_64 »

Beiruty wrote:Since I neveer asked.

When you check a firarm, are you allowed to check in ammo too? is there a limit on the ammount of ammo you can check in?
Kinda goes hand in hand...

Unless you are going to a competition where you might be expending vacuous amounts of ammo downrange, I would only carry enough ammo, that I would normally carry on a daily basis on my person...There are weight restrictions on ammunition with airlines, and that is what I recall being the "main" concern they have with the transport of ammunition

I carry my unloaded firearm in an Airline acceptable case (A Secure-It safe)...Something very searchable on this website...

The ammo is not carried in the magazines, it is stored in a "plastic" reloaders case you can buy at most shooting supply and sporting goods stores in your are...It is opaque so you can see the ammo, but secure enough to meet the requirements of a container that reduces the risk of ammunition coming loose in your baggage and somehow risking "something" they might be concerned about happening in that situation...(sarcasm switch off)

All of the extra things I carry, like a holster and the like, is packed normally in my checked baggage...I usually wait till I get to my accomodations to load up and prepare to carry normally while on my trip outside Texas, if that is the case...

The firearm is clean, and the slide is locked back and "zip tied" to further demonstrate the unloaded condition of the firearm...I carry additional zipties in my luggage for the return trip...

I would also make sure you print out some information on the rules and laws of the states where you will be traveling to, just to review yourself and not to be used as a source of argument with any Law Enforcement officials you may encounter along your trip...Be good ambassadors of our community, and comply with instructions no matter how in the wrong you or they may be in any unfortunate dissagreement...

The form you fill out (at the ticket counter) and is placed INSIDE and locked in the case where the firearm will be during the flight should be retained and accessable (visible) on the return flight at the ticket counter...This is something I did in the past that was an unspoken and visual que to the ticket agent to let them see that I have done this before, and that they should relax and do their best to provide excellent customer service and courtesy without having a coniption fit at the sight of an unloaded "gun" on their counter...

I would also go back and review as much as possible the many discussions on this issue on this website...

I will be augmenting my system and zip tying my reloading case with my ammo in it to secure it even more...Just in case...Sometimes those cases do have loose click tabs that don't keep the lids down as well as they should, so I figured it might be best to put some simple redundancy into my preparations to fly the friendly skies...

All of this preparation (in the long run) proves YOUR intent, and maturity in a world that mostly does not understand, or care about theirs or our right to keep and bear arms in this country...We must be well prepared and versed in the procedures and challenges that are put before us in our daily lives as citizens that choose to exercise these rights...

My future plans will once again be a personal and principled effort to take the fight back to them who would love to have us all just give up and comply and hope for the best in our daily lives and depend upon others to defend us and protect us...Even after they are zipping us up in the body bags and heading to the local morgue...

It may appear that I am being mean, preachy or overbearing in my approach to these issues, but it really is far from the truth...

It is what makes living in these times and enjoying what this country still has to offer, is what I am not going to allow someone else to ruin it for me and others I know...

Good luck to us all, we need to be more vigilant than ever, and be prepared to rise above the challenges that are placed before us these days...

Whomever may say the fight is over needs to get out of my way...I hope to have a few folks I know right along side me...There is strength and safety in numbers...
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by Beiruty »

We are focusing on the travelers who is focusing on the screeners?
Also, how about Crusie ships, subway/metro. light communter train, andd buses too? when we will see TSA doing theri thing there?
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by stevie_d_64 »

sjfcontrol wrote:A MUCH better solution is to use the Israeli methods of profiling to determine who is up to no good. It has numerous advantages. It requires NO invasive techniques (at least not for the vast majority of "good-guy" travelers). It doesn't need to be reactive to prior attempts (i.e., requiring restrictions on liquids and gels), and is a proven-successful technique. The problem is that it requires some significant training, and cannot be done by the typical TSA drones. Another disadvantage is that it doesn't LOOK like what people think of as security. It doesn't make good "security theater", which is needed by the TSA to "prove" they're doing a good job!
Yep, absolutely agree...When and if someone in our government realizes that they (Israelis) have discovered the tried and true, and most cost effective, security system around the world, we will unfortunately be at the mercy of those idiots...I will not fault the TSA for this implemented system, they are only doing what they are told to do, they probably don't like it anymore than we do, but they are also doing a job...And making a living doing it...At least they are employed, and not sucking off the government for sustenance (for the most part)...
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Re: My TSA Diatribe

Post by stevie_d_64 »

Beiruty wrote:We are focusing on the travelers who is focusing on the screeners?
Also, how about Crusie ships, subway/metro. light communter train, andd buses too? when we will see TSA doing theri thing there?
Shhhhhhh!!! :lol:
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