Coach Dies Following Attack

[texanron]

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/lo ... ach-death#
Do some of y'all still think one should wait till they're punched before protecting yourself?

[ddurkof]

I have come to the understanding that I am too old to get into fights with anything older than a 3 year old, and only then when I can sneak up on them. When placed in a situation where you are the protector you have to perform a threat assessment. Something as simple as, "Please walk me to the car, my ex has been threatening me." Make it a group effort, safety in numbers and all that. If you have to do it alone then change the game plan. Go get her car and deliver it to the front door. Watch your surroundings.

I will bet that the coach either totally underestimated the attacker or he was ambushed. It just goes to show that any situation can go tactical without notice. He was in a "good" neighborhood, what ever that really means, walking a soccer mom to her car. Then he gets attacked. It is a bloody shame that people can't behave any better than they do.

What takes the cake is she is at her husband's side in court today giving him moral support knowing that the hot head husband murdered the guy who was trying to protect her.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

IIRC from other news reports, the puncher and his wife filed for divorce
from one another in 2002, but dropped it before it was final.

2008 - They did divorce.

Late 2010 - They remarried.

I speculate that the coach's death was more related to the head injury
he sustained when he hit the parking lot than from the punch(es) he received.

The attacker has not been charged with manslaughter yet - that would seem
to be the appropriate charge now that the coach has died.

SIA

[jmra]

Really have to be careful when getting involved in domestic violence situations. When I was much younger my wife and I were walking down Canal St. in New Orleans and came up to a large crowd cheering on a guy who was beating a woman. I engaged the man in heated conversation which distracted him long enough for my wife to get the woman in our car and drive away. Fortunately I knew the wife would come around the other side of the block and I was able to outrun the crowd and jump through the window of the car before being run down by the mob. Turned out the man was the woman’s ex husband and she was with her new boy friend (the boy friend split at the first sight of the ex). The next day I told a cop friend of mine about the ordeal. He told me if I ever did anything that stupid again he would beat me himself.

Don't know what I would do if faced with the situation again but it will definitely not be that. I have two boys (11 and 9). The only hero I have left in me is reserved for them.

[seamusTX]

Number 1: The victim was killed by the first punch (probably as a result of hitting his head when he fell).

If you think you can shoot anyone who cocks back his fist at you, good luck with that.

Oral threats, gestures, and body posture evaporate after the incident. The only fact that remains is that you shot an unarmed man.

Every prosecution of a CHL holder in Texas has involved an assailant that did not have a firearm or knife.

Number 2: The victim got involved in a domestic dispute, and he apparently was not prepared for the outcome.

I say this with consideration for the fact that he was trying to do the right thing.

If the woman felt threatened, maybe she should have called the cops.

BTW, the comments on this article are incredible:
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs ... _punch.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

[texanron]

If your head comes into contact with anything after being punched in the head it is the punch that caused this contact to come about. Therfore, the act of being punched is the cause for any and all damage that happens thereafter.

[texanron]

All of us agree on this forum that Hollywood gunfights are just not reality. This also holds true for Hollywood fistfights. You can not take getting hit in the head repeatedly and still have your motor skills about you. It only takes one punch landing right on the button and you're out cold! You will not all of a sudden become energized like Hulk Hogan and turn the tables on your attacker. You will become incapacitated and unable to defend yourself or any loved ones that might be with you. Hopefully, shortly after you wake up, you are not getting the news that your loved one was violently assaulted or even killed while you were knocked out. I do not believe one should draw a weapon and shoot an attacker who simply cocks his arm back. However, once the attacker has thrown a punch, grabbed a hold of me or become physically aggressive in any other way the concern over being convicted of shooting an unarmed individual is no longer a reality. Hopefully all of us have obtained some type of training with our firearms. I highly recommend that all of us also attend some type of basic self defense training as well. I'm afraid that the majority of CHL holders feel invincible because thay have a firearm and see no reason to learn anything else. They probably only shoot their weapon once a year at best. Hopefully they're never met with a physical confrontation because chances are they will lose and their weapon will be taken away from them and then used against an innocent person someday.

Climbing down off my soapbox now.....

[chasfm11]

All of us agree on this forum that Hollywood gunfights are just not reality. This also holds true for Hollywood fistfights. You can not take getting hit in the head repeatedly and still have your motor skills about you. It only takes one punch landing right on the button and you're out cold! You will not all of a sudden become energized like Hulk Hogan and turn the tables on your attacker. You will become incapacitated and unable to defend yourself or any loved ones that might be with you. Hopefully, shortly after you wake up, you are not getting the news that your loved one was violently assaulted or even killed while you were knocked out. I do not believe one should draw a weapon and shoot an attacker who simply cocks his arm back. However, once the attacker has thrown a punch, grabbed a hold of me or become physically aggressive in any other way the concern over being convicted of shooting an unarmed individual is no longer a reality. Hopefully all of us have obtained some type of training with our firearms. I highly recommend that all of us also attend some type of basic self defense training as well. I'm afraid that the majority of CHL holders feel invincible because thay have a firearm and see no reason to learn anything else. They probably only shoot their weapon once a year at best. Hopefully they're never met with a physical confrontation because chances are they will lose and their weapon will be taken away from them and then used against an innocent person someday.

Climbing down off my soapbox now.....

I cannot speak for others but I fully understand that just having a gun with me might solve only a few more situations that I might face. Assuming that I remain in condition yellow and pick up on a perceived threat soon enough, I might have a range of options. My biggest fear since getting my plastic was that I might being willing to stand my ground in more cases than before and that my choice would be the wrong one. I have considered seriously the statement that the best way to win a gun fight was not to present when it happened.

I'm probably not physically capable of successfully defending myself in any sort of unarmed attack. My age and physical condition are but two of the factors. I think it takes a certain type of mental state to have the will to beat someone else physically, even in response to a direct attack. I believe that I have the will to attempt to defend myself physically but not the drive for a violent counterattack. That is why I took the retention shooting clinic at PSC. Assuming I get through the initial physical blow(s), I'll worry about the legal consequences afterward, when I'm still alive. I would have been no better of than the victim in this thread if my situational awareness didn't pick up the threat in advance.

[seamusTX]

You beat me to it, chasfm11.

If you let a hostile actor get within arm's reach, you pretty much have already lost the fight.

Most of us who were "raised right" try to be polite to others who are not so polite. I have made this mistake myself. That habit can be risky. At some point you have to drop the façade of politeness and say, "Stop!"

- Jim

[The Annoyed Man]

I do not believe one should draw a weapon and shoot an attacker who simply cocks his arm back.

You're making the mistake of equating the drawing of the weapon with the actual firing of the weapon. If someone in an actual confrontation and close enough to be an actual danger to me cocks his fist back, a reasonable person could reasonably believe that their life was in danger; and he could draw his weapon (threat of deadly force in reponse to impending deadly force). That doesn't mean you have to pull the trigger; but it does mean you are in a position to do so if the other person's assault proceeds. If he backs down instead, then you can reholster the gun. I don't believe that any reasonable interpretation of the law requires you to absorb blows to any part of your body before you can respond.

[seamusTX]

All that is true.

However, you have to keep in mind that many of these criminal actors are clever sociopaths. They are quite capable of calling 911 and claiming that they were just minding their business when you produced a weapon and tried to kill them. The cops do not give CHL holders the benefit of the doubt in street encounters. Ask Handog viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31719" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And in this case, the real criminal would have a witness corroborating that her beloved hubby was as innocent as a newborn lamb.

I don't know how many times we have to emphasize that getting involved in a domestic dispute is a quick way to have your heirs get your life insurance proceeds.

- Jim

[texanron]

I can not draw my weapon faster than an individual who has already cocked his arm will deliver a blow to my person. It takes me at least 1.5 seconds to unholster my weapon. If someone can do this faster than that more power to you. I on the other hand will have to defend against the initial threat and then respond.
Some threats will not reveal that they're a threat with hostile intentions untill they're within arms reach. I for one refuse to admit that a fight has been lost at this moment.

[chasfm11]

All that is true.

However, you have to keep in mind that many of these criminal actors are clever sociopaths. They are quite capable of calling 911 and claiming that they were just minding their business when you produced a weapon and tried to kill them. The cops do not give CHL holders the benefit of the doubt in street encounters. Ask Handog viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31719" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And in this case, the real criminal would have a witness corroborating that her beloved hubby was as innocent as a newborn lamb.

I don't know how many times we have to emphasize that getting involved in a domestic dispute is a quick way to have your heirs get your life insurance proceeds.

- Jim

I understand what you are saying but want to split the hair on this one a little finer.

1. In the domestic violence scenario from this thread, I hope that it would not be too hard to convince LE that I, as a disinterested party (I understand that there would be a line of questioning about my relationship to the woman) would hold the upper hand over an ex-husband with a history of assaults and restraining orders. I would hope that the responding LEOs would have been on enough DV calls themselves to see the situation for what it worth, witness or not. I would probably seek to press charges against the woman for luring me into the situation if she turned around and sided with the offender after pleading for my help. As you correctly said, however, being anywhere near a DV situation is up there on the high risk chart. I had a boy friend of one of my employees come after her on company property. We called LE and had him escorted out - where he waited around the corner for 4 hours for her to leave. If I had that one to do over, I would have gotten her a police escort to a hotel room for that night. He wanted a piece of me, too.

2. Under different circumstances, a BG who was targeting me for non-DV related nefarious reasons and ran afoul of my drawn gun would not get the opportunity to beat me to 911. I understood the message in CHL class - gun comes out, gun goes bang, dial 911. If an exceptional condition where I drew but didn't fire occurred, 911 is the next step regardless. No way am I going to risk someone else telling fibs to the the cops after the fact. I read and re-read the story where the CHL was attacked by 3 unarmed people. I'll shut up after I make the report but I'm the one that is going to make the 911 recording.

[Bart]

I understand what you are saying but want to split the hair on this one a little finer.

1. In the domestic violence scenario from this thread, I hope that it would not be too hard to convince LE that I, as a disinterested party (I understand that there would be a line of questioning about my relationship to the woman) would hold the upper hand over an ex-husband with a history of assaults and restraining orders.

In this story, the woman decided to stand by her man in court. If you shot him in the parking lot, are you sure she wouldn't take his side when the cops show up to question witnesses after the fact? How often do cops intervene in a domestic violence situation and the victim attacks the cops when they try to arrest the attacker?

[Keith B]

In this story, the woman decided to stand by her man in court. If you shot him in the parking lot, are you sure she wouldn't take his side when the cops show up to question witnesses after the fact? How often do cops intervene in a domestic violence situation and the victim attacks the cops when they try to arrest the attacker?

This is pretty common. I had two different situations where we went to a domestic dispute and when we went to arrest the husband for physical abuse, the wife actually assaulted one of the responding officers (me in one case.) Both times the parties had been drinking.

Additionally, it was VERY common back in the days when a woman had to press charges that we would respond to a call from the wife about her husband beating her up and when we would arrive they would recant and tell you they didn't want him arrested. Glad that that process has changed for those out there now.