30.06 / Gun Shows

[Teamless]

I did not want to hijack the other thread about reholstering at the gun show, but I was pondering the following:

I went to the High Caliber Gun Show in Pasadena in early March.
I walked in with an unloaded weapon that I intended to sell, handed it to the officer who proceeded to zip tie it and he handed it back to me.

As this was my first time to bring a gun into the gun show, I asked him "what is the protocol now with the weapon, can I holster it (as it fits my carry holster even though this was not my carry gun) and cover it or put it in my pocket?
He said "Doesn't matter, do what you want"

It is my understanding that the law does not differentiate between loaded and unloaded weapons (or zip - tied) when it comes to concealed weapons, when it comes to 30.06, right?
30.06 basically says that a concealed weapon cannot be carried past the posted point by a CHL holder - right?

So here is where the pondering comes into play

Can someone, even with authority, like the officers checking the guns or the promoters themselves, allow someone to go past the 30.06 sign, with a concealed weapon or have they just proven the point that the 30.06 is not enforceable?
Then, if the law does not differentiate between loaded an unloaded, why can't I just walk into the bathroom, cut the zip tie and reload?
Also, if the law does not differentiate between loaded an unloaded, has the promoter or officer allowing me to pass, just been an accomplice to a crime?

For the sake of limiting the discussion,
I do not want to debate the legality of 30.06 posting at a government building, for the sake of argument, lets assume the gun show is being held at a leased location from a closed grocery store
Please do not use the "do you want to be a test case" argument, I do not think any of us want to be the test case for any law issue

[Keith B]

A person of authority over a location CAN allow you to bypass a 30.06 sign.

And, legally, there is no difference between loaded and unloaded, but if they caught you reloading or with a loaded pistol past that 30.06 sign, especially AFTER you checked it, I can bet you would be taking a ride and they would charge you and let the judge figure it out.

And, while I don't like 30.06 signs, there are too many stupid CHL'ers that would end up dragging out their CCW to try a holster or show someone. With enough of those types out there, I am OK with the 30.06 being in place to try and keep those swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool from drowning me with an ND.

Even with tie-wrapping the number of ND's that happen at shows is surprising. And most of those are from dealers guns.

[Greybeard]

in spades to what Keith said, particularly to the last sentence.

[ScottDLS]

A person of authority over a location CAN allow you to bypass a 30.06 sign.

And, legally, there is no difference between loaded and unloaded, but if they caught you reloading or with a loaded pistol past that 30.06 sign, especially AFTER you checked it, I can bet you would be taking a ride and they would charge you and let the judge figure it out.

And, while I don't like 30.06 signs, there are too many stupid CHL'ers that would end up dragging out their CCW to try a holster or show someone. With enough of those types out there, I am OK with the 30.06 being in place to try and keep those swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool from drowning me with an ND.

Even with tie-wrapping the number of ND's that happen at shows is surprising. And most of those are from dealers guns.

Do you have a problem with people carrying (under CHL) at a gun store, or at Academy? I mean, you never know when they may whip out their carry piece to try out a new holster. I kind of like malls that post 30.06, as you never know when the mentally challenged CHL'er may decide to do a little target practice.

Really this whole "gun show" thing ought to be stopped. It's just an opportunity for felons to use the "gun show loophole" to buy semi-automatic assault weapons that spray bullets.

[Keith B]

A person of authority over a location CAN allow you to bypass a 30.06 sign.

And, legally, there is no difference between loaded and unloaded, but if they caught you reloading or with a loaded pistol past that 30.06 sign, especially AFTER you checked it, I can bet you would be taking a ride and they would charge you and let the judge figure it out.

And, while I don't like 30.06 signs, there are too many stupid CHL'ers that would end up dragging out their CCW to try a holster or show someone. With enough of those types out there, I am OK with the 30.06 being in place to try and keep those swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool from drowning me with an ND.

Even with tie-wrapping the number of ND's that happen at shows is surprising. And most of those are from dealers guns.

Do you have a problem with people carrying (under CHL) at a gun store, or at Academy? I mean, you never know when they may whip out their carry piece to try out a new holster. I kind of like malls that post 30.06, as you never know when the mentally challenged CHL'er may decide to do a little target practice.

Really this whole "gun show" thing ought to be stopped. It's just an opportunity for felons to use the "gun show loophole" to buy semi-automatic assault weapons that spray bullets.

The opportunities for a person at a gun show are far greater for this to happen. Unless you have manned a table at a show and seen some of the really stupid things that attendees and even vendors do, you may not realize how much of an issue it can be. At Academy I don't think a CHL holder will bring their weapon out because it is a public location. They see gun shows differently because everyone is there for the guns. And, at gun stores the sign at the door tells you all weapons must be unloaded before brought into the store. I know that doesn't apply to CHL holders if they stay concealed, but the minute they take it out of the holster, they will get slapped down by store personnel.

Bottom line, gun shows sometimes bring out the stupid in people and, like it or not, if it prevents an idiot from shooting me, then I am OK with it.

[ScottDLS]

I understand your point, but I'm still not on board the "gun shows are special and need 30.06" (or maybe even to be added to prohibited places in 46.035). A CHL is violating 46.035 by intentionally failing to conceal if he pulls out his CCW. So the 30.06 is unnecessary, and already moot since said CHL was allowed inside with his CCW, thereby not fitting the elements of 30.06.

Posting a sign and zip tying NON-chl's guns could (arguably) be a good idea, and under an expansive definition of Texas criminal trespass, may even be enforceable by criminal sanction. Not to mention that carrying a handgun "on or about your person" (without a CHL) at a gun show is technically illegal, unless you consider a gun show "sporting activity".

Gun stores, especially with ranges attached, are notorious for accidental discharges, but I see very few of them posted with 30.06 notices. The question is...who gets to be exempt from your "no carry at gun shows" rule? ...FFL's? Cops? ATF? Maybe even.......CHL's

[Keith B]

It is a hard line to draw. However, my view is that people who attend gun shows go there for the purpose of buying, selling, trading guns and accessories. They see a lot of folks openly handling guns and for some the idea that they are breaking 46.035 never even crosses their mind and they will pull out their CCW. I personally have done this, but I have mine zip-tied at the door and then know I am safe as do others because they can see the tie on the gun. I have seen numerous times when a vendor has cut a zip tie off to allow a person to operate the slide or cycle the action to feel trigger pull etc. And, then they MAY put a new tie on it.

I have been swept 2-3 times at shows with guns that had no zip tie on them, and I had no idea if the gun was one they walked past the sign with, or one of the dealers guns that the zip-tie had been removed or broken. Either way, I was all over them about it sweeping me and the person(s) always said 'It's unloaded!' Yeah, famous last words when you have your finger on the trigger and pointing it at me.

So, to end my posting on this topic, is it a good idea to me to have a 30.06 at the door for those that will not follow the rules? Yes. Do I like that they can't follow the rules and the sign has to be there? No, but it is unfortunately a fact of life that is exacerbated at the gun shows, so it becomes a necessity to play to the weakest link.

[Greybeard]

Quote: "Unless you have manned a table at a show and seen some of the really stupid things that attendees and even vendors do, you may not realize how much of an issue it can be."

Amen, again. Having been doing local shows continuously for the past 15 years, I can honestly say I am very glad to see all the precautions taken at shows such as those by Dallas Arms Collector's Association at Market Hall. I worked the tie table several years ago at another show just long enough to determine that I did not want to do that anymore. Unless you have done such, you would not believe some people's lack of muzzle disipline with loaded guns. Or the number of "unloaded" guns that are presented to be tied - with live ammo in them.

[jmra]

Pick any one of those big tables at a gun show and pull up a chair. Then count how many times you hear a click from some idiot picking up a gun and pulling the trigger.

Was at a show last year where a guy (FFL) had a table with a dozen or so guns. His BIL was helping him. BIL (CHL) came in the back door during setup. At some point before the show he thinks "wonder what I could get for my gun"? Takes gun out of holster, removes mag, runs security cable thru gun.

About lunch time customer says "can I see that gun"? BIL says sure. Removes cable and hands gun to customer. Customer aims gun at table and pulls the trigger. Big BANG, hole in table, chunck of floor missing.

Bye bye CHL, bye bye FFL, and bye bye customer!

[Ameer]

Even with tie-wrapping the number of ND's that happen at shows is surprising. And most of those are from dealers guns.

Being shot by reckless dealers. Another reason not to go to gun shows.

[The Annoyed Man]

It is my understanding that the law does not differentiate between loaded and unloaded weapons (or zip - tied) when it comes to concealed weapons, when it comes to 30.06, right?
30.06 basically says that a concealed weapon cannot be carried past the posted point by a CHL holder - right?

Perhaps zip-tying the slide creates the legal fiction that the gun is no longer a weapon, and thus may be carried any way you want to?

[WildBill]

It is my understanding that the law does not differentiate between loaded and unloaded weapons (or zip - tied) when it comes to concealed weapons, when it comes to 30.06, right?
30.06 basically says that a concealed weapon cannot be carried past the posted point by a CHL holder - right?

Perhaps zip-tying the slide creates the legal fiction that the gun is no longer a weapon, and thus may be carried any way you want to?

I doubt it, but it is an easy way to prevent bozos from shooting off their guns in a show.

[boba]

It is my understanding that the law does not differentiate between loaded and unloaded weapons (or zip - tied) when it comes to concealed weapons, when it comes to 30.06, right?
30.06 basically says that a concealed weapon cannot be carried past the posted point by a CHL holder - right?

Perhaps zip-tying the slide creates the legal fiction that the gun is no longer a weapon, and thus may be carried any way you want to?

I doubt it, but it is an easy way to prevent bozos from shooting off their guns in a show.

Except for the people professional enough not to have to zip tie.

[kevin]

Pick any one of those big tables at a gun show and pull up a chair. Then count how many times you hear a click from some idiot picking up a gun and pulling the trigger.

Was at a show last year where a guy (FFL) had a table with a dozen or so guns. His BIL was helping him. BIL (CHL) came in the back door during setup. At some point before the show he thinks "wonder what I could get for my gun"? Takes gun out of holster, removes mag, runs security cable thru gun.

About lunch time customer says "can I see that gun"? BIL says sure. Removes cable and hands gun to customer. Customer aims gun at table and pulls the trigger. Big BANG, hole in table, chunck of floor missing.

Bye bye CHL, bye bye FFL, and bye bye customer!

Why are they an idiot for pulling the trigger? Your telling me they are an idiot for wanting to test the trigger pull before they send big bucks on a gun? Granted all way saftey check, but you telling me you never dry fired a gun before, I dont believe it..

[jmra]

Pick any one of those big tables at a gun show and pull up a chair. Then count how many times you hear a click from some idiot picking up a gun and pulling the trigger.

Was at a show last year where a guy (FFL) had a table with a dozen or so guns. His BIL was helping him. BIL (CHL) came in the back door during setup. At some point before the show he thinks "wonder what I could get for my gun"? Takes gun out of holster, removes mag, runs security cable thru gun.

About lunch time customer says "can I see that gun"? BIL says sure. Removes cable and hands gun to customer. Customer aims gun at table and pulls the trigger. Big BANG, hole in table, chunck of floor missing.

Bye bye CHL, bye bye FFL, and bye bye customer!

Why are they an idiot for pulling the trigger? Your telling me they are an idiot for wanting to test the trigger pull before they send big bucks on a gun? Granted all way saftey check, but you telling me you never dry fired a gun before, I dont believe it..

I have witnessed the idiot trigger pulling many times. Not once have I seen an attempt to verify that the weapon was clear before the idiot pulled the trigger. My approach is to ask for assistance from the sales person. I have them verify that the weapon is clear. I then repeat the process and then request permission to try the feel of the trigger.

The idiot I told you about in my post who picked up the loaded gun from the table and pulled the trigger was charged with unlawful discharge. The officers position was he had no business pulling the trigger without verifying the gun was unloaded.

Of course if the vendor has done his job correctly you shouldn't be able to pull the trigger without some type of prevention (tie wrap) being removed.