Non-lethal Defense

[jubal]

I'm new to carrying (licensed in March). I've been carrying with a tuckable IWB Galco for my Diamondback DB380. Works well for business and weekend dress. I'm still acclimating to it but it gets easier every day.

I've found there are some cases in which carrying is not possible due to restrictions (signage) or if I'm out having a beer with my buddies (signage +alcohol). I picked up a pepper spray for these occasions. Though bringing a pepper spray to a gun fight would be a terrible idea, it would provide a nearly insurmountable advantage in many common confrontations.

I've found myself carrying the pepper spray frequently while carrying the .380. I figure if the situation is not clearly justifiable for lethal force, or if there is a good chance of hurting a bystander by shooting, I have a backup plan.

Do any of you carry a non-lethal alternative? If so, what? How does pepper spray compare to a baton or blackjack? Any legal ramifications worth noting?

[WildBill]

I'm new to carrying (licensed in March). I've been carrying with a tuckable IWB Galco for my Diamondback DB380. Works well for business and weekend dress. I'm still acclimating to it but it gets easier every day.

I've found there are some cases in which carrying is not possible due to restrictions (signage) or if I'm out having a beer with my buddies (signage +alcohol). I picked up a pepper spray for these occasions. Though bringing a pepper spray to a gun fight would be a terrible idea, it would provide a nearly insurmountable advantage in many common confrontations.

I've found myself carrying the pepper spray frequently while carrying the .380. I figure if the situation is not clearly justifiable for lethal force, or if there is a good chance of hurting a bystander by shooting, I have a backup plan. Welcome to the forum.

Do any of you carry a non-lethal alternative? If so, what? How does pepper spray compare to a baton or blackjack? Any legal ramifications worth noting?

Batons and blackjacks are illegal weapons. As long as you get a good brand, pepper spray is good. Welcome to the forum.

[MasterOfNone]

Batons and blackjacks are illegal weapons. As long as you get a good brand, pepper spray is good. Welcome to the forum.

Your CHL is a license to carry handguns. It does not authorize you to carry anything else that is not otherwise legal to carry.

[Skiprr]

For carrying an OC (Oleoresin Capsicum) option, it's hard to beat the Kimber Pepperblaster.

But if you need something smaller, here's a post I wrote last October about evaluating options that might offer some info: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38473&p=459602#p459602" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

The net messages from that post are, a) understand how to use OC, and its limitations; b) there are important differences in delivery mechanisms to consider; and c) if you carry pepper spray, it's a good idea to also carry a couple of Sudecon wipes with you.

And welcome to the Forum!

[RPB]

For carrying an OC (Oleoresin Capsicum) option, it's hard to beat the Kimber Pepperblaster.

But if you need something smaller, here's a post I wrote last October about evaluating options that might offer some info: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38473&p=459602#p459602" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

The net messages from that post are, a) understand how to use OC, and its limitations; b) there are important differences in delivery mechanisms to consider; and c) if you carry pepper spray, it's a good idea to also carry a couple of Sudecon wipes with you.

And welcome to the Forum!

jubal, WELCOME to the forum !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Skiprr

Everyone I've ever known tells me "you're the smartest person I've ever known."
So from someone who "knows it all" (me) I have to say I'm continually learning something new which I never thought of, just about every time I read a post you make.
Thanks

[srothstein]

Hi, Jubal, and welcome to the forum.

You have asked a couple questions that can really open a can of worms around here. One of the answers is very debatable, and I will give you both sides so you can make a choice. The Penal Code says that you are exempt from section 46.02 if you are carrying a gun and a CHL. This is the section that makes it illegal to carry a club or some knives (others are always illegal). Side A says that the exact wording of the law means that you can carry a club or knife if you are also carrying a gun and your CHL. Of course, if you have to disarm because of a 30.06 sign or a 51% location, you cannot legally carry the club anyway. Side B says that the law intends to allow you to carry a pistol because it is a CHL license, not a concealed weapons license. You can read the law and the intent and make up your own mind.

But, along with that, comes the question of whether or not a club or OC spray can be effective. The answer is of course they can, if you know what you are doing with them. I carried a club as a less than lethal weapon for years, and I had complete confidence that I could use it effectively. But, I also had classes in its use in the police academy, as well as continuing training periodically over the years. When I first was issued OC spray, I went through a training program to make sure we knew how to use it effectively also. But I have seen people who get hurt more by their own weapon than the bad guy does, if they don't know how to use it properly.

Think of the typical guy with a pair of nunchuks. They are so hard to use, that the common image is the user hurting himself trying to impress someone. But I would certainly hate to come up against a true martial artist who had them and knew how to use them.

And the same is true also for a gun. You really do need training in how to use it properly. I do recommend that every CHL consider getting more training on how, and especially when, to use deadly force. You are not required to have any more than the class to get your CHL, but it is a good idea when you can afford it.

[MasterOfNone]

Batons and blackjacks are illegal weapons. As long as you get a good brand, pepper spray is good. Welcome to the forum.

Your CHL is a license to carry handguns. It does not authorize you to carry anything else that is not otherwise legal to carry.

Now I'm rethinking this. Steve's post got me looking closer at 46.15, and I see where I have erred. Though I'd read the actual words many times, I always somehow saw the nonapplicability applying to the act of carrying with a CHL. But as I read the actual words again, it is stated that 46.02 does not apply to the person who is carrying with a CHL. I stand corrected.

[G.A. Heath]

I agree with the above post from srothstein, however I would like to add to it for clarification. There is no truly non-lethal options for self defense, in fact I refer to these options as less-lethal. Mace/Pepper/OC sprays can, in some very rare cases, cause severe allergic reactions and possibly lead to the death of anyone who comes into contact with it. There are similar avenues for tasers (aka stun guns), and other less lethal options to actually become lethal. Now with that in mind one major disadvantage of sprays is that they can blow/bounce/drift back onto the user. Keeping that in mind, even if the user is able to continue the fight they could find them selves subject to a severe allergic reaction that could kill them. Now when you get trained on the proper use of these devices one will often get the opportunity to experience having them used against themselves letting them learn of potential issues such as allergic reactions. An officer I met at a gun store once made me aware of the potential allergic reaction to sprays, as he himself had such an allergy.

[pbwalker]

What about something like this? Legal?
http://www.keepshooting.com/clear-out-6 ... enade.html

I could see this being handy if you find yourself in a fender bender / MVA in a bad neighborhood when all the roaches start pouring out to add fuel to the fire. (I lived in NYC during the Crown Heights Riots...so I'm thinking about what happened to Yosef Lifsh)

Might be wise to keep one or two in the car? You may end up with some in the eyes, but it could give you that split second to bail...

[nyj]

I carry a 2oz. can of Fox Labs when I can. Which isn't very often do the bulk of it. I keep it in my jacket pocket, so in the cooler months or on the cooler mornings I have it with me. If I can't bring my gun, I bring the spray.

Nothing wrong with carrying something like pepper spray. If I can avoid using lethal force against an unarmed person, than I absolutely will. Using pepper spray to defend yourself doesn't lead to you having to go to jail, call your lawyer, unimaginable amounts of stress, and the possibility of spending time in prison.

[speedsix]

What about something like this? Legal?
http://www.keepshooting.com/clear-out-6 ... enade.html

I could see this being handy if you find yourself in a fender bender / MVA in a bad neighborhood when all the roaches start pouring out to add fuel to the fire. (I lived in NYC during the Crown Heights Riots...so I'm thinking about what happened to Yosef Lifsh)

Might be wise to keep one or two in the car? You may end up with some in the eyes, but it could give you that split second to bail...

http://www.ehow.com/list_6706879_pepper ... texas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; found this while looking for the actual law...shame that Texas has a track record of ambiguity where self-defense is concerned...travelling...knife laws..."small" pepper spray...we can do better than this...we need to know where we stand clearly...

[RPB]

I've had sprays for 30 or so years, but due to about 3 years worth of really windy days, considered taser/stun gun devices .... haven't really looked into them. I probably should search the forum first but about to head to an annual 2-day church meetin' ... as far as nun-chucks, I wonder if the Richardson Police Dept still has the pair I used to own in the 1970s which a friend borrowed. (I never did and wouldn't carry them, instead I carry an almost 3-foot long keychain consisting of heavy chain and keys ... the weight, or lack thereof, reminds me not to forget my keys in the house/car, and "practicing" when walking to my car from a store, keeps my keys in my hand, and everyone at least 15 feet away from me.... it's "just a keychain".... "THEY say to have your keys in hand walking to your car, so, I do.)

Martial arts "chain fighting"
http://www.google.com/search?q=martial+ ... n+fighting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.google.com/search?q=Kusarifu ... 640ae08969" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(If you watch the videos, note that the flexible weapons can be used for more than striking if you allow someone to get too close too because you weren't aware of surroundings )

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Anyway, I know very little about the stun guns etc ... various voltages, legality on campuses, etc but saw a college campus rape prevention kit with pink ones last year somewhere, and was curious... guess I'll look further into them if campus carry get neutered.