Did I break AZ law?

[terryg]

My first out of state carry experience was in AZ last few last week. I read up on the AZ laws at http://www.handgunlaw.us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and we made our trip. I spent the better part of 5 days in the Phoenix Convention Center. On our first trip to the center, I looked on the exterior doors for gunbuster signs but did not see any. So, I happily carried away.

As we were leaving the center at the end of day 3, we walked by the ticket booth (which is inside the main doors) and I happened to see a large gun buster sign in the ticket booth window. We didn't have to purchase tickets for our event, so I had not visited this window before. So, as we were leaving, I looked more closely at the exterior doors and did find gunbusters. These were very small and only present on the far left and right doors. (I thought they were no smoking signs.)

Here is the sign:


You can see they are only located on the far left and right doors:


Now here is the legal text per http://www.handgunlaw.us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:

Code: Select all

4-229.   Licenses; Handguns; Posting of Notice
A.  A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 may carry a concealed handgun on the 
      premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits   
      the possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to the following    
      requirements:
     1. Be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the 
            liquor license posted on the licensed premises.
     2. Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.
     3. Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".
B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted 
     the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.
C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:
     1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the   
         violation.
     2. Any one or more of the following apply:
        (a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.
        (b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.
        (c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty 
             days before the violation.
D. The department of liquor licenses and control shall prepare the signs required by this section and make 
     them available at no cost to licensees.

And, it seems that another line was added at some point - as a google search reveals the following:

Code: Select all

E. The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine inches. The letters comprising the words "no firearms allowed" shall be at least three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a vertical inch.

I believe the sign at the ticket counter was probably complaint. It looked to be about 6"x9" and it had the 'pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229' wording at the bottom. But there is no way the signs on the door would be complaint per this section. I also like C.2.(b) - it reads to me that it is a defense to prosecution to break the rule if you are not a resident of AZ.

But after that night, I left the gun in my hotel room and went un-armed for the final two days. So I don't think I violated the law considering I stop carrying after I saw the only truly complaint sign - which was the first sign that I actually saw! During my first three days, while I did carry, I think the following factors should apply:

1. The signs were not posted in conspicuous locations per A.1.
2. The signs did not have the proper wording per A.3.
3. The signs were not the proper size per E.
4. Then there is whole non-resident thing, C.2.(b), although I don't know if I really understand how that works.

If the above are all true, I suppose I could have just claimed that I didn't see the ticket booth sign. But I am not a very good liar and honest usually works in you favor when dealing with LEO.

What do you think? Does anyone with more experience with AZ laws care to weigh in?

[Keith B]

Assuming the sign is compliant, then you would have only broken the law if you continued to carry after you saw the sign and had received notice that no firearms were allowed. But, I do believe they exempt non-resident's, so you may not have been in violation anyway.

Now, the other thing is if the Convention Center is owned by the city, county or state, then they have to request the gun be surrendered and then provide a place to store the gun if they require you to disarm, then return it to you when you leave.

[Rebel]

I have been curious of this too.

Let's leave out the non resident aspect for now. My take is that prior to seeing the proper signs, you were good to go, and if you had been "made" they would have asked you to leave most likely, or could have had you arrested(at worst). At that point your defense becomes, yes I was carrying in a off limits location, but I didn't know the location was off limits.

It's kind of a crazy setup, like you I am fascinated with the whole Non Resident defense, or the other little kicker they have in there,

F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:

1. Seeking emergency aid.

2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.

You calm always claim I'm just here to verify the legality of the gunbuster, lol.

[dicion]

It looks to me like that section of law applies to places that sell alcohol for consumption on site, which, if this place did that, would apply.
Are there no other sections about 'general trespass' with a handgun?

I agree that the non-resident defense is interesting, to be sure, as well as the government owned storage requirement mentioned above.
If someone here more versed in Arizona carry law could sort it out for us, that would be awesome.

EDIT: Aha! Found what I was looking for. On the HandgunLaw.us site, further down, it says this:

Prohibitions on carrying firearms in these venues apply to both open and concealed carry.

Any establishment or event open to the public where the operator makes a reasonable request for you to give them custody or remove the weapon from the premises.

So they do not require any equivalent to a 30.06 sign in privately owned business. A Gunbuster sign is good enough at any private business it seems.
Wonder why they would even have the requirements posted above for a place that sells alcohol. Maybe the laws are a little more complex, and handgunlaw.us is trying it's best to summarize. I dunno.

[terryg]

EDIT: Aha! Found what I was looking for. On the HandgunLaw.us site, further down, it says this:

Prohibitions on carrying firearms in these venues apply to both open and concealed carry.

Any establishment or event open to the public where the operator makes a reasonable request for you to give them custody or remove the weapon from the premises.

So they do not require any equivalent to a 30.06 sign in privately owned business. A Gunbuster sign is good enough at any private business it seems.
Wonder why they would even have the requirements posted above for a place that sells alcohol. Maybe the laws are a little more complex, and handgunlaw.us is trying it's best to summarize. I dunno.

Ok, I see now - thank you. I also found this in the pdf:

Arizona does not require any specific wording, size, location or format for No
Firearms signs which prohibit the carrying of a firearm on private property. The only requirement is that
the signs provide a Reasonable Notice that firearms are prohibited. They do not need a sign if the property
owner has someone at the door giving notice to those who enter. If you enter a property that does not have
signs and the owner or person in charge of the property ask you to remove the firearm you have to or you can
be charged with trespassing.

So then I guess the only valid question would be:

Do the small gunbuster stickers on the two outside doors of an 8 door entrance constitute reasonable notice?

[PracticalTactical]

The Phoenix Convention Center is a public establishment, owned by the City of Phoenix. The only thing they can do is ask you to place your gun in secure storage or to leave. A gunbuster is worthless in this situation, but the anti-gun zealots in Phoenix city government put them up anyway to discourage people.

Arizona's preemption law used to allow cities to ban firearms in parks, but after that law changed they left the signs up hoping people wouldn't know the law changed.

Arizona's preemption law:

13-3118. Possession or storage of firearms; restrictions prohibited; exceptions
A. Except for the legislature, this state and any agency or political subdivision of this state shall not enact or implement any law, rule or ordinance relating to the possession or storage of firearms other than as provided in statute.
B. This section does not prohibit:
1. A state, county or municipal judicial department, law enforcement agency or prosecutorial agency from prohibiting a deadly weapon pursuant to section 13-3102, subsection A, paragraph 10.
2. A political subdivision of this state from enacting any rule or ordinance requiring a business that obtains a secondhand firearm by purchase, trade or consignment to retain the firearm for a period of not more than ten days at its place of business or another storage location that is approved by the applicable law enforcement agency.
(emphasis added)

13-3102, subsection A, paragraph 10:

10. Unless specifically authorized by law, entering any public establishment or attending any public event and carrying a deadly weapon on his person after a reasonable request by the operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event or the sponsor's agent to remove his weapon and place it in the custody of the operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event for temporary and secure storage of the weapon pursuant to section 13-3102.01

And 13-3102.01:

13-3102.01. Storage of deadly weapons; definitions
A. If an operator of a public establishment or a sponsor of a public event requests that a person carrying a deadly weapon remove the weapon, the operator or sponsor shall provide temporary and secure storage. The storage shall be readily accessible on entry into the establishment or event and allow for the immediate retrieval of the weapon on exit from the establishment or event.
B. This section does not apply to the licensed premises of any public establishment or public event with a license issued pursuant to title 4.
C. The operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event or the employee of the operator or sponsor or the agent of the sponsor, including a public entity or public employee, is not liable for acts or omissions pursuant to this section unless the operator, sponsor, employee or agent intended to cause injury or was grossly negligent.
D. For the purposes of this section, "public establishment" and "public event" have the same meanings prescribed in section 13-3102.

The definitions mentioned in 13-3102:

2. "Public establishment" means a structure, vehicle or craft that is owned, leased or operated by this state or a political subdivision of this state.
3. "Public event" means a specifically named or sponsored event of limited duration that is either conducted by a public entity or conducted by a private entity with a permit or license granted by a public entity. Public event does not include an unsponsored gathering of people in a public place.

If the establishment is licensed pursuant to Chapter 4 (liquor licensing), then they must go by those laws establishing a specific size and wording (what was mentioned above).