Clarification Requested in Self-Defense Situation

[Talykashykun]

Hello CHLforum, first post here but it's a nagging question that was probably answered in class but it was so long ago I can't recall how it was answered. Basically I'm looking for an either "yes this is legal" or "no this is illegal" kind of answer for this hypothetical situation that I may be placed in later this day.

I will be working at a retail business (where my boss has given me permission to carry at work in compliance with the Senate Bill 321 (82nd Leg. R.S.)) in which we will be having a release of a certain product in which we will have a large crowd waiting in line. Now here is the hypothetical question. If an unruly customer or person threatens me or another person with violence, for more realism let's say that he was yelling: "I'm going to beat your head in until you stop moving" to me or the other customer, and she is waving his arms in a threatening manner or approaches me/the other guy in a threatening manner. Is it legal for me to draw and tell him to leave the premises/stand down because I am fully willing to defend myself or the other person's safety, or should I just say that he should leave the premises/stand down, and that I am armed and willing to defend my safety or the other person's safety. I'm trying to get as much of the semantics covered as possible so I know I "got my six covered" in a sense. I definitely know I will have some kind of situation that will probably be worse than this by the end of tonight so I'm just trying to sort things out.

[Liberty]

Hello CHLforum, first post here but it's a nagging question that was probably answered in class but it was so long ago I can't recall how it was answered. Basically I'm looking for an either "yes this is legal" or "no this is illegal" kind of answer for this hypothetical situation that I may be placed in later this day.

I will be working at a retail business (where my boss has given me permission to carry at work in compliance with the Senate Bill 321 (82nd Leg. R.S.)) in which we will be having a release of a certain product in which we will have a large crowd waiting in line. Now here is the hypothetical question. If an unruly customer or person threatens me or another person with violence, for more realism let's say that he was yelling: "I'm going to beat your head in until you stop moving" to me or the other customer, and she is waving his arms in a threatening manner or approaches me/the other guy in a threatening manner. Is it legal for me to draw and tell him to leave the premises/stand down because I am fully willing to defend myself or the other person's safety, or should I just say that he should leave the premises/stand down, and that I am armed and willing to defend my safety or the other person's safety. I'm trying to get as much of the semantics covered as possible so I know I "got my six covered" in a sense. I definitely know I will have some kind of situation that will probably be worse than this by the end of tonight so I'm just trying to sort things out.

Senate Bill only prohibits the Employer from restricting you from keeping a concealed gun in you vehicle in the company parking lot. If he has given you permission to carry on your person while working it has little or nothing to do with SB321.
The permission means that the employer can not retaliate against you if your discovered to have your firearm on you.

Probably the only thing I would say in the situation you describe would be to draw , and say " back off" Unless imminently threatened, leveling the barrel at someones head isn't a great idea. Keep the gun holstered unless you truly are threatened. This is a crowd situation and thing can quickly go down the tubes with an angry or scared crowd.

What really is troubling is that you are expecting trouble. Perhaps things should be done a little different? How about hiring some some proffessional security. providing some coffee and donuts (tea and cookies) to the folks in line. or just refusing to partisipate in what sounds like a dangerous event. Avoiuding trouble is the best defence.

[Munk]

This isn't going to be good moving forward. Good luck with your new job.

[bat1]

The old sayings goes,

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"

Only Pull your firearm IF you Plan to use it, IF the person had a bat, gun or knife, you would be OK.. BUT remember, you would have to Convince a Jury why you took someones life over words..., could be a hard sell

Read this...
http://www.usacarry.com/why-you-should- ... situation/

"remember that in order to draw your gun you must be in immediate fear for your life. You don’t draw your gun to scare someone off, you don’t draw the gun and shoot to “wound” someone either. If you’re taking out your gun it’s because you need to use it that instant because if you don’t you might end up a dead man."

BAT

[thatguy]

Hello CHLforum, first post here but it's a nagging question that was probably answered in class but it was so long ago I can't recall how it was answered. Basically I'm looking for an either "yes this is legal" or "no this is illegal" kind of answer for this hypothetical situation that I may be placed in later this day.

I will be working at a retail business (where my boss has given me permission to carry at work in compliance with the Senate Bill 321 (82nd Leg. R.S.)) in which we will be having a release of a certain product in which we will have a large crowd waiting in line. Now here is the hypothetical question. If an unruly customer or person threatens me or another person with violence, for more realism let's say that he was yelling: "I'm going to beat your head in until you stop moving" to me or the other customer, and she is waving his arms in a threatening manner or approaches me/the other guy in a threatening manner. Is it legal for me to draw and tell him to leave the premises/stand down because I am fully willing to defend myself or the other person's safety, or should I just say that he should leave the premises/stand down, and that I am armed and willing to defend my safety or the other person's safety. I'm trying to get as much of the semantics covered as possible so I know I "got my six covered" in a sense. I definitely know I will have some kind of situation that will probably be worse than this by the end of tonight so I'm just trying to sort things out.

To start with, your question wants a clear, cut and dry answer in a very gray area. The fact is you will be in trouble no matter what. The is no cut and dry situation but as I describe to my students, in our legal system your are found to be justified after all the facts are in or you are not found to be justified, its a throw of the dice so to speak. All that being said it is better to keep the gun in its holster, better yet make different arrangements like not working there or hiring security (as others have posted). It sounds like your little voice is screaming right now so I would listen to it.

Lastly I encourage you to train like your life depends on it, because it does. Trainging and practice build confidence, which lends to better judgement.

[Jumping Frog]

If I thought I was going somewhere dangerous enough to need my gun, I wouldn't go there.

[punkndisorderly]

Seems like a bad way to look at things.

One, seems like the store is anticipating problems. If so, then they should rethink the way they're introducing the product. Seems like negligence on their part not to have security.

You might also be placing a little too much faith in them. If you did have an occasion to use deadly force, and things went badly, at best you would be on your own legally. At worst, they would throw you under the bus.

You are also talking about pulling a firearm in a high stress situation where the threat may well see your bluff and raise the stakes. You're now in a situation where you have a very real threat who may have dozens of people behind him and seconds to make a shoot/don't shoot decision. Worse, that nice orderly line is now trampling each other to get out of there.

I would put yourself in the shoes of someone in that line.

Lastly, I think you should think hard about the responsibility you're taking on when you carry concealed. There's a reason that you only get a plastic card and not a badge or a cape and tights.

[speedsix]

...when your only tool is a hammer...everything begins to look like a nail...use your God-given reasoning powers and 99% of life won't require a gun...the fact that you're carrying one takes the panic out of the other 1%...I've studied Abe Lincoln and Sir Winston Churchill...both could defuse a nasty situation with a wise choice of words...it usually works...

[Heartland Patriot]

I was thinking maybe they could just acquire an old cannon, load it with grapeshot, and if the crowd gets unruly due to the truly over-stimulating nature of the product release, well then its "clear the decks"...

[cubbyjg]

If you feel your life is in immenent danger (person has shown/pointed/running at you with weapon or another customer, etc), then you are within your legal right to defend yourself (or another person). Drawing your firearm in a crowd just because someone threatens to beat you up (verbally) is very risky. It could be seen as brandishing, etc.

If you or your boss were expecting some unruly customers, off duty LEOs should be hired to help mitigate that risk. If you are in loss prevention, there is only so much you can do. If the customer becomes unruly, and wont leave, dont continue to engage. Call the POLICE and let them handle it. It doesnt seem like you job title is "armed security" or "LEO". IMO, dont act like one and truly understand what your job responsibilities are. Dont take on unnecessary risk for your EMPLOYER!

[papajohn1964]

Find and take a good verbal judo class or buy a book and read it! Then take some more handgun classes and maybe retake a chl class.

[kjolly]

What do you owe your job and the store. In any SD situation it is going to cost thousands of dollars and maybe your freedom. I would not risk this for a job or employer.

[RoyGBiv]

The way I was taught it originally in NC is ... You cannot escalate.

If you are met with verbal "force", you are justified to use verbal "force" in response.
If the aggressor increases to "soft hands", you can similarly use "soft-hands" in response (take them by the arm and move them)
If the aggressor increases to "hard hands" (punching, etc.)
If the aggressor increases to "deadly force"....

The moment YOU escalate the amount of force involved in the situation, you become the aggressor.

The gray area is... at what point does the aggressors escalation reasonably become "deadly force" directed at you.?
Before you reach that point, wherever it is, you cannot draw.

IMO, IANAL.

[Middle Age Russ]

Each responder has given some sound advice in my opinion.

The percieved or actual disparity of force could come into play in this situation as a determining factor justifying the use of force or deadly force. The problem, though, is that other people, after the fact, will be judging whether you acted reasonably. Best to avoid the situation and/or hire security if at all possible. Feel free to let us know where/when this product introduction will occur so we can avoid it as well.

[AEA]

All good responses........

But I think I'll go fishing today......looks like they are biting good!