Self defense scenario

matriculated · Post by **matriculated** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:30 pm

Hey guys, great CHL forum. I see lots of good advice and level-headed analysis, so I have a hypothetical self-defense scenario that I would be interested in seeing some comments on.

Let's say I'm on my way to my car in some parking lot. Not a lot of other cars, no other people. For whatever reason (let's say I've had a long and stressful day), I'm in condition white and don't notice this guy coming up to me until he has his knife at my side and is telling me to hand over my wallet "or else" (I imagine the criminal would use more colorful language). I hand over my wallet without him slicing me up, he turns around and starts running in the opposite direction. At this point I pull out my gun, point it at the guy's back, and yell: "Drop my wallet or you're dead." Now, in my mind, I have no intention of really shooting this guy in the back over my wallet. But he just mugged me, and I'm just making an attempt at retrieving my property. If he keeps running, I'll reholster my gun and call the cops. If he drops my wallet and keeps running, even better. But, he does neither of those, and instead turns around, figures the gun's either not real or I'm bluffing about shooting him, and comes at me. This guy is now coming at me and I know he is armed with a knife and willing to cut me, in light of the mugging that took place a few seconds prior. I put a couple of rounds in his chest in self-defense. He goes down, I call the police.

Am I in the right? Did I break the law by pulling my gun even though the guy was running away at that point, and even though I wasn't going to shoot him in the back? How's the police going to feel about this if I explain it to them word for word as I did above?

edited for a misspell

¿Qué? · Post by **¿Qué?** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:39 pm

I'm not a lawyer but I suggest you think about what your actions would look like to a witness who only saw the second half of the incident where he was running away and you had a gun pointed at him.

matriculated · Post by **matriculated** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:39 pm

Que, in the moments before I shoot him, he is coming back at me. He was running away earlier, but is now coming at me and I know he has a knife and I know he just mugged me. Will that be insufficient in light of the fact that I did pull the gun when he was running away?

Beiruty · Post by **Beiruty** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:42 pm

It looks justifed shooting if turned and charged at to you with a knife in his hand. Even pulling and threat of deadly force is only a considered a force and is justifed

74novaman · Post by **74novaman** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:45 pm

Just to play devils advocate:

The confrontation was over. The jerk/scum is fleeing. You then draw and confront him, escalating the situation.

I can see how that would get you into trouble. A big part of the CHL class is supposed to be conflict resolution/deescalation.

Drawing on a guy after he's broken off contact is far from "deescalation".

MoJo · Post by **MoJo** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:50 pm

74novaman wrote:Just to play devils advocate:

The confrontation was over. The jerk/scum is fleeing. You then draw and confront him, escalating the situation.

I can see how that would get you into trouble. A big part of the CHL class is supposed to be conflict resolution/deescalation.

Drawing on a guy after he's broken off contact is far from "deescalation".

That's what I was thinking.

Beiruty · Post by **Beiruty** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:54 pm

74novaman wrote:Just to play devils advocate:

The confrontation was over. The jerk/scum is fleeing. You then draw and confront him, escalating the situation.

I can see how that would get you into trouble. A big part of the CHL class is supposed to be conflict resolution/deescalation.

Drawing on a guy after he's broken off contact is far from "deescalation".

the guy was in the process of commiting a robberry with a deadly weapon justifying deadly force.

Beiruty · Post by **Beiruty** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:57 pm

74novaman wrote:Just to play devils advocate:

The confrontation was over. The jerk/scum is fleeing. You then draw and confront him, escalating the situation.

I can see how that would get you into trouble. A big part of the CHL class is supposed to be conflict resolution/deescalation.

Drawing on a guy after he's broken off contact is far from "deescalation".

the guy was in the process of commiting a robberry with a deadly weapon justifying deadly force.

gdanaher · Post by **gdanaher** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:01 pm

The time to shoot was when he was approaching the first time, knife in hand. Your life is in danger. "Officer, I shot him because I feared for my life." When he is running away he is no longer a threat unless he stops and again attacks. You survived the initial attack. The scenario indicates that the second attack is the result of your threats to him. You should have drawn and shot him to begin with when he presented the knife.

74novaman · Post by **74novaman** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:09 pm

Beiruty wrote:
74novaman wrote:Just to play devils advocate:

The confrontation was over. The jerk/scum is fleeing. You then draw and confront him, escalating the situation.

I can see how that would get you into trouble. A big part of the CHL class is supposed to be conflict resolution/deescalation.

Drawing on a guy after he's broken off contact is far from "deescalation".
the guy was in the process of commiting a robberry with a deadly weapon justifying deadly force.

In the initial encounter, absolutely right.

But as he's running away, is he still in the process of committing a robbery?

bayouhazard · Post by **bayouhazard** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:17 pm

74novaman wrote:
Beiruty wrote:
74novaman wrote:Just to play devils advocate:

The confrontation was over. The jerk/scum is fleeing. You then draw and confront him, escalating the situation.

I can see how that would get you into trouble. A big part of the CHL class is supposed to be conflict resolution/deescalation.

Drawing on a guy after he's broken off contact is far from "deescalation".
the guy was in the process of commiting a robberry with a deadly weapon justifying deadly force.
In the initial encounter, absolutely right.

But as he's running away, is he still in the process of committing a robbery?

I think it switched to defense of property when he ran away. That's a different standard than defense of self.

IANAL and these are my opinions not legal advice.

tommyg · Post by **tommyg** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:26 pm

If he is running away after robbery than He is not worth the
powder it would take to blow him up.

Get away as fast as possible and save yourself

You can replace your wallet cancil all credit cards immediately
Report it to the cops maybe it will help a little

I'm not a Lawyer: If you shoot in this case then you will need one real bad

matriculated · Post by **matriculated** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:34 pm

As I figured, the sticking point seems to be that I drew the gun as the guy was running away. There are two different ways to discuss that. One way is to talk about whether or not that was the right thing to do in that situation. Another way would be to talk about whether or not that was a legal thing to do. As we know, the right thing to do and the legal thing to do aren't always the same thing.

I know that I should have pulled the gun in the initial contact, but let's stick with the scenario as it is. For whatever reason I couldn't pull the gun (he had his knife right on me and would have stabbed me before I had the muzzle on him).

My question is: Was pulling the gun and pointing it at the guy as described in the scenario legal? Whether or not it was dumb and something you wouldn't do, was it legal? Am I going to face charges over this? Are cops slapping cuffs on me? Remember, this guy just mugged me under threat of deadly violence. He had his knife on my ribs 1 second prior to me pulling a gun. But his back is turned to me now. So...?

matriculated · Post by **matriculated** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:37 pm

tommyg wrote:If he is running away after robbery than He is not worth the
powder it would take to blow him up.

Get away as fast as possible and save yourself

You can replace your wallet cancil all credit cards immediately
Report it to the cops maybe it will help a little

I'm not a Lawyer: If you shoot in this case then you will need one real bad

As I explained in the scenario, I wouldn't have shot the guy. If he kept running, I would have reholstered and dialed 911. The question is, since I do end up shooting him after he comes back at me, will I face consequences over drawing on a guy who was running away.

bayouhazard · Post by **bayouhazard** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:39 pm

Also I think scenarios and what ifs are useful when they're realistic. Let's say the robber has your valuables and he's running away. He has what he wants from you and getting shot is probably not part of his plan. His best chance of not getting shot is to keep running. Many street criminals aren't book smart but they're street smart or they don't last long. His best bet is disappearing into the "nowhere" he appeared from and he probably knows that.

tl;dr He already has what wants. Why would he come back?

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