Carrying in Colorado...Close Call

[beefmobile]

--I DID NOT BREAK THE LAW--

I forgot to post this, but last month, the girlfriend and I drove to Denver to see a GREAT band at the Red Rocks Amphitheater. We took a nice vacation to see family, go to the show (two nights), and explore the mountains. As you all know, Texas CHL reciprocates with CO, so i carried everywhere permitted by law.

Now, CO law is similar to Texas, however, they don't have laws specifically regulating written notification. For example, gun buster, "NO GUN", and "No Weapons" signs hold the authority of law....at private locations. On the other hand, land and venues owned/operated by the city, county, or state are prohibited from restricting licensed concealed carry. Another stipulation is there is no carrying if there are PERMANENT metal detectors that screen everyone that go into the building/location.

The first night of the show, I decided I would rather carry than drink alcohol. So, i had on my Glock 27 and Crossbreed Supertuck. I noticed there was a long list of rules at each entrance, including "NO weapons, or any items that can be construed as weapons such as firearms, knives, etc". We still had a couple of hours before the doors opened, so I did as much research as possible. I looked up ownership of the amphitheater, and lo and behold, it was owned and operated by the City of Denver.

You have to remember, this was right in the middle of the spike in recent mass shootings.....about a week after the Aurora, Co theater shooting (about 30 miles away from where we were). I was going to carry.

So I decided I was going to continue carrying. We had general admission tickets, which reserved the first 25 rows for those with said tickets. About 150 people showed up early to the doors opening, which was still two hours before the opening band went on stage. Nobody was afraid to push and shove to get to the seats first, but it was a long, long walk past the three checkpoints to the final gate to get in. They regulated it by allowing us to go to the first checkpoint, get radio conformation, then lets us go to the next one, etc. The difficult part was there were THREE checkpoints to get into the venue. No metal detectors, just three ticket and search checkpoints. I started sweating a little bit, but i knew i wasn't doing anything illegal. I figured the worst thing that could happen is they would get the on-site police to come over and I would explain my case, hoping they knew the law (I know...not all cops know the law), and either i would leave my weapon in the car or they would make it a bigger deal than necessary. It turns out that there were two ticket checkpoints and only one search checkpoint (it was a long walk down a narrow walkway to the entrance).

As we all made it down to the second (search) checkpoint, they were frisking everyone and checking their bags. I had our tickets in one hand and my CHL in the other, ready to shove it in their face before they freaked out from feeling a gun on my hip. I had my G27 in the Crossbreed right at my 3 o'clock. Once it was my turn, i followed suite with everyone else and acted like i was in a hurry to get to the next checkpoint. The lady touched the G27....TWICE. I thought for sure she was going to freak out and yell "HE'S GOT A GUN!!!!". Well, she moved on to search my arms and legs and gave me the 'go ahead'.......WOW! I couldn't believe it. A rush of relief went over me. I'll admit, i felt like Houdini.

The show went well and we had a great time. The next night, we decided we were going to have some beers, so i left the Glock in the hotel. That's a story I'll never forget.

*I edited this several times within a few minutes of posting it, so you may have missed a part of the story if you opened it right after i posted it.

[RoyGBiv]

gun buster, "NO GUN", and "No Weapons" signs hold the authority of law....at private locations.

My understanding of CO law differs from yours...

FWIW... Here's a post I made in a previous thread.
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 82#p696882" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not a lawyer. This is my OPINION. Not legal advice.

[beefmobile]

gun buster, "NO GUN", and "No Weapons" signs hold the authority of law....at private locations.

My understanding of CO law differs from yours...

FWIW... Here's a post I made in a previous thread.
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 82#p696882" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not a lawyer. This is my OPINION. Not legal advice.

My original post was not intended to state facts, but merely show my interpretation of the law. Are you saying there is specified guidelines for written notification? The reason i ask is because Colorado law reserves the rights of individuals such as business owners, just as Texas does. Basically, like in Texas, if business owners (or home owners, for that matter) do not want you to carry, they can notify you either by written or verbal notice (30.06). In other words, the local government (city, county, or state) cannot force the private sector to allow CHL holders to carry on their property, be it commercial or private. Otherwise, by you assuming signs posted intending to prohibit concealed carry have no weight, you are implying that businesses and business owners have lost their right to tell you that you aren't allowed to carry on their property.

Regardless, the amphitheater was owned and operated by the City of Denver, therefore no sign could hold any legal weight.

[C-dub]

gun buster, "NO GUN", and "No Weapons" signs hold the authority of law....at private locations.

My understanding of CO law differs from yours...

FWIW... Here's a post I made in a previous thread.
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 82#p696882" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not a lawyer. This is my OPINION. Not legal advice.

My original post was not intended to state facts, but merely show my interpretation of the law. Are you saying there is specified guidelines for written notification? The reason i ask is because Colorado law reserves the rights of individuals such as business owners, just as Texas does. Basically, like in Texas, if business owners (or home owners, for that matter) do not want you to carry, they can notify you either by written or verbal notice (30.06). In other words, the local government (city, county, or state) cannot force the private sector to allow CHL holders to carry on their property, be it commercial or private. Otherwise, by you assuming signs posted intending to prohibit concealed carry have no weight, you are implying that businesses and business owners have lost their right to tell you that you aren't allowed to carry on their property.

Regardless, the amphitheater was owned and operated by the City of Denver, therefore no sign could hold any legal weight.

Regarding CO law, you are mostly correct except for the notification part. I copied the quote below from another response on the same subject in another thread. And although Denver is a little different, I'm not sure what CO's specific laws are regarding city/public property. Some states don't allow CC in city buildings, while states like Texas mostly forbid the prohibition of CC in city buildings. But, this is about what is effective notification.

RoyGBiv - it's not that Aurora illegally forbid concealed carry in that theater. Rather, Cinemark posted signs prohibiting it. And in Colorado, all a business needs is a gunbuster sign. They don't have 30.06 equivalent.

Already debunked back on page six of the Aurora thread. It's the text I changed to red.

Knowing Aurora, it is quite possible there were CHL holders in the crowd, but they couldn't carry in the theater. Aurora and Denver aren't exactly gun friendly, when we lived in Colorado Springs a few years back, Denver had managed to ban CHL's as a city, and everything in Aurora was posted.

Just to clarify, are you saying that I cannot carry within the Denver city limits? Not at all?

Perhaps Colorado does not have state preemption. Las Vegas is like that. In Vegas, they kill you if you have a CHL. And then they make excuses and blame it on the victim. Vegas keeps reelecting Harry Reid. 2+2= etc. Apparently then, parts of Colorado also teach "the new math."

You can concealed carry in Denver, but they do ban open carry.

As for 'No Guns' signs being enforcable to prevent concealed carry, this is from http://handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“No Firearm” signs in Colorado have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you are asked to leave you must leave. Always be aware of the possibility that responding Police Officers who may have been called without your knowledge and may not know the laws on trespass etc. could arrest you even if you are within the law.

[C-dub]

As we all made it down to the second (search) checkpoint, they were frisking everyone and checking their bags. I had our tickets in one hand and my CHL in the other, ready to shove it in their face before they freaked out from feeling a gun on my hip. I had my G27 in the Crossbreed right at my 3 o'clock. Once it was my turn, i followed suite with everyone else and acted like i was in a hurry to get to the next checkpoint. The lady touched the G27....TWICE. I thought for sure she was going to freak out and yell "HE'S GOT A GUN!!!!". Well, she moved on to search my arms and legs and gave me the 'go ahead'.......WOW! I couldn't believe it. A rush of relief went over me. I'll admit, i felt like Houdini.

The show went well and we had a great time. The next night, we decided we were going to have some beers, so i left the Glock in the hotel. That's a story I'll never forget.

*I edited this several times within a few minutes of posting it, so you may have missed a part of the story if you opened it right after i posted it.

I probably would have been sweating bullets myself wondering if I made the right choice or had made a mistake in my interpretation of their law.

However, since the frisker did not ask for ID or call an officer I wonder what she thought that piece of tupperware was?

[RoyGBiv]

Are you saying there is specified guidelines for written notification?

CO does not have an equivalent to TX 30.06..

As I understand it (my OPINION), signs have no force of law in CO. If someone posts a sign on a place that is already prohibited, it's not the sign that has force of law, it's the prior prohibition that makes it illegal. With one exception.... Localities may pass laws affecting OPEN carry, and such laws must be properly posted to be enforceable.

Again... this is my OPINION.

If a private business wants to prohibit CC on their premises, they must, IN MY OPINION based on MY INTERPRETATION of the following statute, tell you verbally that your gun is not welcome... Unless that place is already on the prohibited list (private school, for example).

18-4-201. Definitions

(3) A person "enters unlawfully" or "remains unlawfully" in or upon premises when the person is not licensed, invited, or otherwise privileged to do so. A person who, regardless of his or her intent, enters or remains in or upon premises that are at the time open to the public does so with license and privilege unless the person defies a lawful order not to enter or remain, personally communicated to him or her by the owner of the premises or some other authorized person. <snipped>

Here's the rub..... Do you consider a "no guns" sign to be a "personally communicated" instruction? I do not.
I can find no test cases to cite... If you find something either way, please post it.

I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!

[beefmobile]

Yes open carry throws in a curve ball when interpreting CO law, but, of course, i was CCing.

The reason i even brought up the notification was only because they had it improperly posted at the venue. NOW, the other reason i was unsure was because i called the state troopers office before i made the trip and specifically asked, "Do gun busters and 'no guns' signs hold ANY weight?" His answer was "Yes, private business reserve the right to prohibit concealed carry on their property by posting such signs". Now, regardless if he was right or wrong, i took his information with the same validity as all the other information i had gathered. The only thing that really made me feel i was doing the right thing for sure was when i googled 'Red Rocks Amphitheater', the Wiki page pulled up with bold letters saying "Owner: City of Denver. Operator: City of Denver". Before that, i planned to leave it in the car.

I guess im just glad i got the experience, if nothing else. It was 'fun', or rather so horrifying that it was 'fun'. Three seconds before the frisk, i felt like a total tool. Three seconds after the frisk, i felt like the slickest guy in town.

[RoyGBiv]

the other reason i was unsure was because i called the state troopers office before i made the trip and specifically asked, "Do gun busters and 'no guns' signs hold ANY weight?" His answer was "Yes, private business reserve the right to prohibit concealed carry on their property by posting such signs".

There's an expression that's used a lot here in these circumstances.... I'll paraphrase..
............. "You might beat the rap, but you'll still take the ride"...

I suspect that if they found your gun during the frisk you would have been arrested... and been a test case for whether my interpretation of CO law is correct or whether the officer you spoke with was correct. Or, maybe they would have charged you with some other violation that I'm not familiar with.... Either way, being a test case can be an expensive proposition. Glad it turned out OK for you.

Cheers.

[beefmobile]

Yes, i know. Trust me, worst case scenarios ran through my head over and over. I had my CHL out to hopeful keep the security guard from at least freaking out. The cops were already out there because of stupid kids climbing all over the rocks ($1,000 fine posted signs for doing so), so they were probably already aggravated. I guess i just felt like had to do it, the girlfriend being with me and all those mass shootings. There were almost 9,000 people there both nights....perfect place for somebody to go crazy and shoot the place up.

[AJHutton]

What blows me away in the OP's report is the completely inneffective search the so-called "security" performed. Amazing.

[WildBill]

What blows me away in the OP's report is the completely inneffective search the so-called "security" performed. Amazing.

Not necessarily. They could have searching for bottles or knives. Guns may be legal, but they don't want you bringing your own booze to concerts.

[ELB]

...Not necessarily. They could have searching for bottles or knives. Guns may be legal, but they don't want you bringing your own booze to concerts.

That's a generous interpretation. I'm going with "incompetence."

[Shinesintx]

...Not necessarily. They could have searching for bottles or knives. Guns may be legal, but they don't want you bringing your own booze to concerts.

That's a generous interpretation. I'm going with "incompetence."

I would tend to agree with, but what could have entered her mind when she touched it? One of those mysteries that we will never know...just like Hoffa.

[TexasGal]

People might not always even know what a gun would feel like even if they felt it on you. The last CPR class I took was in a hotel conference room in downtown Dallas. I was legally carrying and was just fine until the instructor told us to practice the heimlich maneuver on each other I quickly picked out the most timid looking woman in the room as my "partner". I acted like nothing was amiss even when she clearly had her arm across the gun. She never did seem to realize what that hard metal bulge at my right waist was. Whew! I'm pretty sure we might have had someone to really practice CPR on if she had
I sure was glad of a holster with good retention. BTW, the heimlich is harder to do right on an armed person

[Scott in Houston]

A police officer friend of mine has told me that, while going into college football games at A&M, his duty gun as been 'felt up' by security dozens of times, and not once has anyone said anything about it. He purposely hasn't said anything to see if it's ever caught... it never is.