IMAX fighter pilot - Red Flag

[Beiruty]

Is it available on Bluray?

[The Annoyed Man]

Is it available on Bluray?

I am watching it on a 57" DLP TV right now, by connecting to YouTube through my BlueRay player.

[ELB]

Nice. thanks for pointing it out.

I was part of the AWACS unit back in 82-86, as a programmer. Spent a lot of time in mission simulators, on the consoles. Man has the inside of that bird changed.

[The Annoyed Man]

Nice. thanks for pointing it out.

I was part of the AWACS unit back in 82-86, as a programmer. Spent a lot of time in mission simulators, on the consoles. Man has the inside of that bird changed.

Yeah, I was really surprised at the graphic quality of the AWACS displays.

[C-dub]

Did the real thing back in '86 out at Nellis. Not as a pilot, though, but I did get to see some of the video from the cameras on our planes. Funny thing is that what I remember the most is that we hit so many jack rabbits driving home it was ridiculous.

[The Annoyed Man]

OK, so the criticism I have is that some of the pyrotechnics on the ground were obviously staged. Others were pretty real though.

Also, I wish I could ask a pilot this: Do you REALLY punch off that many flares in air combat? I'd be willing to bet that the answer is 'no.' After all, isn't a large part of air combat about stealth? Not giving away your position to the other guy? And unless you can physically see a rocket headed your way, isn't one flare just as good as twenty to draw the attention of a heat seeker? Those things leave a trail of smoke and fire out of proportion to their size. It may fool a heat seeking warhead, but it also draws the human eye to its source (which is why I think they used them so much in the video). If the enemy pilot didn't see you before, he sure does now. I can see the value of a big flare display in air-to-ground attack.....right [/i]after[/i] you've delivered your payload and they already know you're there. But doing it before you head into an air-to-air engagement just doesn't make sense to me.

But what do I know?

Anyway, that criticism aside, it was pure eye-candy.

[Beiruty]

OK, so the criticism I have is that some of the pyrotechnics on the ground were obviously staged. Others were pretty real though.

Also, I wish I could ask a pilot this: Do you REALLY punch off that many flares in air combat? I'd be willing to bet that the answer is 'no.' After all, isn't a large part of air combat about stealth? Not giving away your position to the other guy? And unless you can physically see a rocket headed your way, isn't one flare just as good as twenty to draw the attention of a heat seeker? Those things leave a trail of smoke and fire out of proportion to their size. It may fool a heat seeking warhead, but it also draws the human eye to its source (which is why I think they used them so much in the video). If the enemy pilot didn't see you before, he sure does now. I can see the value of a big flare display in air-to-ground attack.....right [/i]after[/i] you've delivered your payload and they already know you're there. But doing it before you head into an air-to-air engagement just doesn't make sense to me.

But what do I know?

Anyway, that criticism aside, it was pure eye-candy.

From observation of the Israeli Air Force operations in Lebanon in 1982. If there are SAM-7 or better with heat-seaking warhead, it is flare galore, in air-2-air-combat, it is get to boggies' six as fast as possible and let go a sidewinder.
If tailed, get out of jam in a flash.

[C-dub]

OK, so the criticism I have is that some of the pyrotechnics on the ground were obviously staged. Others were pretty real though.

Also, I wish I could ask a pilot this: Do you REALLY punch off that many flares in air combat? I'd be willing to bet that the answer is 'no.' After all, isn't a large part of air combat about stealth? Not giving away your position to the other guy? And unless you can physically see a rocket headed your way, isn't one flare just as good as twenty to draw the attention of a heat seeker? Those things leave a trail of smoke and fire out of proportion to their size. It may fool a heat seeking warhead, but it also draws the human eye to its source (which is why I think they used them so much in the video). If the enemy pilot didn't see you before, he sure does now. I can see the value of a big flare display in air-to-ground attack.....right [/i]after[/i] you've delivered your payload and they already know you're there. But doing it before you head into an air-to-air engagement just doesn't make sense to me.

But what do I know?

Anyway, that criticism aside, it was pure eye-candy.

Just one isn't good odds. A sniper can be very effective with the whole "one shot, one kill" thing, but when you got missile coming at you at mach snot and it's sole purpose is to kill you you're going to drop as many as those things as you can and pray that missile goes for one of them. It has been a long time, but that was also one of the systems I used to maintain on our Tomcats. We had burst mode settings for their release. I think it could be set for 1, 3, 6, or more at a touch of the button.

[ELB]

Every use I have ever seen filmed of flares showed several. Similarly to what C-dub said, if you launch just one, then there are two hot spots in the sky for the missile to choose among - you and the decoy. If you pop off a bunch, then, you become one of many, and hopefully the lesser hot spot. Even in air-to-air, if the enemy pilot launches a missile, it's because he already knows you are there, so being seen is not such a worry...

I am pretty sure AA and missiles kill more planes than fighter plane bullets.

But just for grins: my current boss is an F-16 pilot with the Texas Air Guard, I will quiz him about it next time he drops by the office.

[The Annoyed Man]

Don't the aircraft's defense systems warn the pilot if an enemy radar is painting him? Again, I'm not an expert, but you've only got so many of those things on board right? So would you waste them every time you break left or right, even if another plane wasn't trying to get missile lock on you? Like I said, I understand that ground attack is a different thing entirely. You're not just worrying about SAM batteries, you're also worrying about the single infantryman on the ground armed with a stinger, and popping off a whole mess of flares as you take your run in makes a lot of sense. I just had the impression that there was a lot of flare launching during the air to air evolutions purely because it made good cinema.

Or, maybe I'm an eejit and don't know what I'm talking about. Wouldn't be the first time.

[ELB]

Oh I don't doubt they scripted a lot of photogenic moves for this - - it is, after all, a movie. They are not going to spend a lot of film on the boring enroute flight to target or engagement, they will focus on the dogfights and the attacks. But as far as I have seen, when flares get used, they get used generously, for aforementioned reasons...

[C-dub]

Don't the aircraft's defense systems warn the pilot if an enemy radar is painting him? Again, I'm not an expert, but you've only got so many of those things on board right? So would you waste them every time you break left or right, even if another plane wasn't trying to get missile lock on you? Like I said, I understand that ground attack is a different thing entirely. You're not just worrying about SAM batteries, you're also worrying about the single infantryman on the ground armed with a stinger, and popping off a whole mess of flares as you take your run in makes a lot of sense. I just had the impression that there was a lot of flare launching during the air to air evolutions purely because it made good cinema.

Or, maybe I'm an eejit and don't know what I'm talking about. Wouldn't be the first time.

There are different alarms for different types of threats so the pilot will know how to react. Air to air, ground to air, and heat seeking infrared or radar guided and probably others by now. IIRC, the Tomcat carried around 48 flares. There were two canister things, I don't remember what they were called exactly, that I think held 24 each. The picture I have in my head is of a thing that had 4x6 rows of flares and there were two of these right next to each other underneath the plane back behind the tail hook.

Any info ELB gets from his boss will be much more relevant than my memory. However, I don't think they let loose a bunch of flares every time they get painted. I think they are more discretionary with them and use them at a particular optimal time to give them the best chance of fooling the missile.

[AFAmmo]

It’s been years since I saw “Fighter Pilot”. I don’t remember all the details, but I remember thinking that it was pretty accurate at the time. I spent 12 years working with chaff, flare, and other ordinance. I never did Red Flag, but my friends that went all had a positive experience with it.

To answer your question, if a pilot is using countermeasures in a combat environment, it is in response to a direct threat, and they are not going to be frugal with them. I spent almost all of my time with an F-16 unit. The weapons systems that I worked on were designed to be used far beyond visual range. The idea is to kill the enemy way before they have a chance to see you, so the pilot is not worried about anyone seeing their flares. The movies where pilots try to shoot each other down with bullets with just yards separating their jets is just Hollywood.