What am I missing?

[JustMe]

What am I missing? Obviously something!! I do not understand why the push to change the original CHL class to 4 hours. With the current required subjects + the additional stuff I add that I think should be covered(where you can & can't carry, etc.) I push to get everything in 10 hours.

I am not interested in being castigated for wanting to keep a longer class because of the $-this is not the source of my livlihood. I am genuinely interested in understanding the matter, beause I must be missing something with all the people who are supporting the change

Thank You

[Charles L. Cotton]

What am I missing? Obviously something!! I do not understand why the push to change the original CHL class to 4 hours. With the current required subjects + the additional stuff I add that I think should be covered(where you can & can't carry, etc.) I push to get everything in 10 hours.

I am not interested in being castigated for wanting to keep a longer class because of the $-this is not the source of my livlihood. I am genuinely interested in understanding the matter, beause I must be missing something with all the people who are supporting the change

Thank You

There has been so much posted on both sides of this issue, I won't try to cover everything I've posted supporting HB47. In summary:

• 1. We are dealing with a constitutional right, so no license or training should be required;
  2. The subject matter set out in the Gov't Code can be taught in much less than "10 hours;"
  3. HB47 will be amended to allow for classes (new and renewal) to be 4 to 6 hours, excluding range time;
  • a. If you spend as little as 1 hour on the range, this means your classes can be between 5 and 7 hours;
    b. Current "10 hour" classes must include 1.5hrs to 2.25hrs. in breaks, resulting in 7.75hrs to 8.5hrs for classroom and range time. With only 1 hour on the range, your current classroom time can only be 6.75 to 7.5 hours long. (These breaks are mandated by DPS; they are not optional.)
  4. If you teach renewal students, then you are already teaching all of the statutorily-required material in 4hrs to 6hrs. because we have to give them the same test.
  5. We've been teaching the material in 4 hrs. for 15 years, so we know it can be done.
  6. 10 hour classes are fatiguing to students resulting in poorer comprehension and retention levels.

As I've said many times before, none of us can teach our 10 hr classes in 4 to 6 hrs, but those 10 hrs include information not required by the Code.

Chas.

[Lucky]

Current "10 hour" classes must include 1.5hrs to 2.25hrs. in breaks, resulting in 7.75hrs to 8.5hrs for classroom and range time. With only 1 hour on the range, your current classroom time can only be 6.75 to 7.5 hours long. (These breaks are mandated by DPS; they are not optional.)

Will those 4-6 hours contain mandatory breaks? If so, it's still half as much time for instruction, give or take.

4. If you teach renewal students, then you are already teaching all of the statutorily-required material in 4hrs to 6hrs. because we have to give them the same test.

That may be how you do it, but I assume renewals remember something from last time, and maybe learned a few things out in the real world. In addition, the law requires four subjects for new students but only "one or more of the subjects" for renewals.

I'm not disagreeing that if I teach to the test, I can do a cram session in 20-30 minutes for most people. If that's what we're trying to accomplish, why not make it a one hour class? Or make the class optional as long as people can pass the CHL test, like the written DL test for adults.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Current "10 hour" classes must include 1.5hrs to 2.25hrs. in breaks, resulting in 7.75hrs to 8.5hrs for classroom and range time. With only 1 hour on the range, your current classroom time can only be 6.75 to 7.5 hours long. (These breaks are mandated by DPS; they are not optional.)

Will those 4-6 hours contain mandatory breaks? If so, it's still half as much time for instruction, give or take.

Only DPS will be able to answer that question, but I suspect that DPS will not require hourly breaks with a class that will run between 4 and 6 hours. Most seminars I attend for the State Bar's mandatory continuing legal education offer breaks every 1 1/2 hr and that seems to be somewhat standard. At that rate, there would be only 2 breaks in a 4 hour class, and 3 breaks in a 6 hour class. At the current mandatory 10 to 15 minutes each, that's only 20 to 30 minutes, or 30 to 45 minutes in 4hr and 6 hr. classes respectfully. That's much less time spent in breaks than in current 10 hr. classes.

Your position also ignores range time. CSHB47 will allow 4hr to 6hr classes, excluding range time. The examples I gave above assumed only 1 hr. spent on the range and I know from talking to hundreds of instructors over the years that many, if not most, spend a lot more time on the range than 1 hr. It depends primarily upon the size of the class and the capacity of the range, but the experience level of the shooters also factors into the time required. Two to 2 1/2 hrs on the range seems to be the norm. (I know some are going to chime in and say "I don't spend that much time on the range. There are exceptions, but I'm talking about information I've gained from hundreds of instructors over many years.)

Under current law, a 10hr class in which 2hrs are spent on the range results in only 5.75 to 6.5 hrs. in the classroom. So HB47 could result in even more class time, if an instructor chooses to teach a 6 hr. class, plus range time that is "off the clock."

4. If you teach renewal students, then you are already teaching all of the statutorily-required material in 4hrs to 6hrs. because we have to give them the same test.

That may be how you do it, but I assume renewals remember something from last time, and maybe learned a few things out in the real world. In addition, the law requires four subjects for new students but only "one or more of the subjects" for renewals.

I don't know what you mean by "how do it," but I cover everything that will be on the DPS test. To do less in my view is both irresponsible and doing a disservice to my students. How can an instructor in good conscience administer a state-mandated test to students covering subject matter that instructor didn't teach?

If you assume that students remember anything from a class they took 5 years earlier, then you are a more optimistic person than am I. Plus, if you are wrong, then your students pay the price for you not covering the material on the test. Studies clearly show that people retain only a small fraction of what they covered in a class and they begin to forget within weeks of the class.

I'm not disagreeing that if I teach to the test, I can do a cram session in 20-30 minutes for most people.

I don't "teach to the test" as public school teachers complain when they are held to a standard of performance. I cover the material and I do it in 4 hours for renewal students. Initial students get more detail on certain subject matter because they are with me longer. I cover the use of force in great detail and I do it in the afternoon after renewal students have joined us. I do this because, in my view, it's the most important single subject I can teach. We usually spend 2 1/2 hrs on it. If I only "taught to the test" I could cover it in 2 minutes. If that sounds like an exaggeration, look at the very few questions on the test dealing with the use of force.

If that's what we're trying to accomplish, why not make it a one hour class? Or make the class optional as long as people can pass the CHL test, like the written DL test for adults.

What I as an NRA Board Member, and Second Amendment advocate for over 30 years, am trying to accomplish is to return the focus to legislating against "bad acts" rather than depriving law-abiding citizens of tools that are misused by only a small fraction of people who possess those tools. I wish there was no requirement for a license, or a class in order to exercise a constitutional right. The reality is we aren't there yet, so all we can do at this point is reduce burden of obtaining a CHL as much as possible. When we passed the Motorist Protection Act 6 years ago, some CHL Instructors were predicting trouble because people would have handguns in their cars and they wouldn't have gone through a CHL class or proven proficiency on the range. The dire predictions haven't proven accurate. I believe the same will hold true for reducing the overly long and unduly burdensome 10hr CHL class.

Now let me ask the same two questions I've asked other instructors, but have never gotten an answer. First, how long are your renewal classes? Secondly, do you feel your renewal students are not getting sufficient training and education?

Chas.

[Crossfire]

Charles - in the current program, are breaks every hour really mandated? I don't remember this being a mandate, but a suggestion.

I ask because, like you, I spend about 2 hours on "Use of Force", and I schedule a break before I begin, but I don't stop once I am into it.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Charles - in the current program, are breaks every hour really mandated? I don't remember this being a mandate, but a suggestion.

I ask because, like you, I spend about 2 hours on "Use of Force", and I schedule a break before I begin, but I don't stop once I am into it.

In my initial class and when we had to go to Austin to renew, we were told that a class hour was 50 minutes. The breaks were not optional, but necessary because of the length of the class. I've seen other newly certified instructors state that they were told hourly breaks should be 15 minutes long, so that's why I use the range 10-15 minutes.

I try to select a good transition point to take breaks so it doesn't destroy continuity. Sometimes this means we take a break at 45 minutes and at other times we take a break at 1hr and 10 minutes.

Chas.

[RJGold]

One thing I noticed in my class (10 hour initial) is that there was a lot of basic pistol information covered and a lot of "what if" time spent. I grew up shooting and didn't need this information. I also believe that carrying is my right and I only got the license so I wouldn't commit a felony and lose that right.

All that said, if the course only included the material required by law, I think 4 hours is plenty.

My two cents...

[cw3van]

One thing I noticed in my class (10 hour initial) is that there was a lot of basic pistol information covered and a lot of "what if" time spent. I grew up shooting and didn't need this information. I also believe that carrying is my right and I only got the license so I wouldn't commit a felony and lose that right.

All that said, if the course only included the material required by law, I think 4 hours is plenty.

My two cents...

Well said. I see the energy in my students when we start but it is long gone by the time we're done. Adult learners are not geared to spend 10 hours learning something many already know. Most of my students are security officers who have been through the same type of training and more but still have to listen to the material take the test. I've had students go through the academy take their handgun licensing test (range time) come back two weeks later for CHL & have to qualify again in order to meets the requirements for a license. I know my situation is different than most but folks 10 hours is just to long.

[JustMe]

my 2 biggest sections are the Use of force/deadly force & NV dispute resolution. I'll be honest--I don't like the NVDR section anyway--but that comes from being a nurse & psych isn't my field! It just reminds me so much of the "book"" and very little about what really happens in life! I don't spend a lot of time on basic handgun use, more on safety. But I do also cver some other things--how to handle LE encounters--where you can & cant carry--possible aftermath. I may be an oddball--but so far I have had NO renewals!!(I've only been doing it a year-so no, I didnt run them off the first time!)