My CHL application and juvenile record--need some advice

[CHLSteve]

I just completed my CHL training course. On the part of the application that asks for criminal history information "including juvenile..." I am not sure what to put. Is there any way for me to look up my juvenile record to see if anything is on there?

The reason I ask, is that there was one instance when I was 15 where some friends I was with were basically trespassing on someone's property. The owner called the police, and we were put in the back of the squad car (mostly to scare us I think). There was no harm done, and the man did not press charges. The police officer drove us to our parent's a few blocks away, dropped us off, and told them what had happened and "to keep an eye on us." We never went down to the station. As best I can tell, we were detained, but not arrested.

I need to know if I should included this on my application, or if there is a good way for me to get my own juvenile records to see what is there. I don't want my application denied for something silly like this!

[txinvestigator]

I just completed my CHL training course. On the part of the application that asks for criminal history information "including juvenile..." I am not sure what to put. Is there any way for me to look up my juvenile record to see if anything is on there?

The reason I ask, is that there was one instance when I was 15 where some friends I was with were basically trespassing on someone's property. The owner called the police, and we were put in the back of the squad car (mostly to scare us I think). There was no harm done, and the man did not press charges. The police officer drove us to our parent's a few blocks away, dropped us off, and told them what had happened and "to keep an eye on us." We never went down to the station. As best I can tell, we were detained, but not arrested.

I need to know if I should included this on my application, or if there is a good way for me to get my own juvenile records to see what is there. I don't want my application denied for something silly like this!

I would put that I was arrested and released at the scene to my parents for tresspass on land at age 15, and released to my [parents with no charges filed.

[Crossfire]

Txi - I am going to disagree with you on this one. I don't think he should list it.

There won't be any records for him to send to DPS because he was not fingerprinted or photographed. It doesn't sound to me like he was actually "arrested" for DPS purposes.

If he lists this, it will just slow up his application while DPS asks for more info.

[txinvestigator]

Txi - I am going to disagree with you on this one. I don't think he should list it.

There won't be any records for him to send to DPS because he was not fingerprinted or photographed. It doesn't sound to me like he was actually "arrested" for DPS purposes.

If he lists this, it will just slow up his application while DPS asks for more info.

OK,

[stevie_d_64]

Ok, you two instructor types...

Either way would he meet the "disclosure" requirement by just noting the arrest and simple disposition (like Txi mentioned), or does he have to disclose full details (like llwatson implies) and give contact information to the jurisdiction, for the CHL office to investigate???

Either way, I feel it's going to add a little time to the processing of his CHL, but maybe not too much time, if he provides a little more detail so there is not too much more legwork needed to be done...Right???

Figuratively speaking...

[seamusTX]

If the police stop you, you have been arrested. It's not necessary to be fingerprinted, photographed, or "booked."

However, most likely no record of this type of juvenile arrest can be found.

When I was a kid, which was more than 30 years ago, the Chicago police would write down the subject's name and address with a brief comment on a clipboard that they carried. I don't know what happened to those logs, but I doubt they were ever computerized. They probably rotted in a basement or were shredded during housekeeping.

I don't know what is done these days. Perhaps a LEO will inform us.

If you list this type of undocumented arrest, DPS will tell you to get a certified letter from the clerk of the court stating the disposition of your case. If you get a letter from the county clerk saying that they have no record, that will probably suffice.

- Jim

[Skiprr]

If the police stop you, you have been arrested. It's not necessary to be fingerprinted, photographed, or "booked."

Well, mostly sorta. IANAL, and can't even spell "attorney," but the difference between "detained" and "arrested" can be a bit fuzzy out on the fringes.

A LEO can stop you for committing a traffic violation, or even can stop you for brief questioning about suspicious activity (the latter referred to as a "Terry Stop"), and you are being detained, not arrested. In a Terry Stop, you can even be patted down for weapons and you still aren't under arrest (in the pat-down, they can't remove anything from pockets but suspected weapons, not even drugs or other contraband).

That said, a LEO never has to specifically state you are under arrest and read you Miranda for you to be actually under arrest. I think the key difference is your reasonable expectation that you are free to leave once the stop or questioning is complete. If you are detained for a significant period of time, told you are not free to go at this time, or restrained from leaving in any way--like being placed in the back of a police cruiser--you are under arrest.

I dunno, but given the description of CHLSteve's incident, I think I'd be likely to enter it on the app as txinvestigator first described. Yep; it'll probably extend approval time a bit, but better letter-of-the-law strict than sorry. Now, if CHLSteve is 60 years old and this sort-of-arrest happened in 1962, I guess I'd be a lot more likely to consider it a non-event and not list it...

[CHLSteve]

Gentlemen, I appreciate the advice and opinions. I am conflicted between not wanting to hold my application up for something unnecessarily, and being truthful about what may be on my record.

This was over 16 years ago, so my memory isn't exactly fresh. I'm pretty sure they held us there while they figured out what was going on. Some of us were put in the squad car, not to detain us so much as to keep the four of us from changing our stories while the police questioned us individually. Once they were able to determine that it was just four stupid young boys that were harmless, they dropped us off into the custody of our parents down the block. This was a bright Sunday morning around 11 AM. That part I remember because we got in trouble for not being in church!

I need to find out what's on there (if anything) and I will report that. If there is nothing on there, I don't see the point of tying up the app with this information.

So.. the county clerk's office is where I need to go? Anyone know the procedure for pulling the records?

[seamusTX]

... the difference between "detained" and "arrested" can be a bit fuzzy out on the fringes.

That is true, but in this case the kids were in fact trespassing, and the police removed them from the scene. If their parents had not been available, they would most likely have been transported to the police station.

- Jim

[KRM45]

Juveniles are not "arrested" in Texas... they are merely detained.

[Skiprr]

Juveniles are not "arrested" in Texas... they are merely detained.

Um, I don't think so. That may be true under 10 years of age, but juveniles between age 10 and 17 can formally be arrested, as far as I know.

[lrb111]

Gentlemen, I appreciate the advice and opinions. I am conflicted between not wanting to hold my application up for something unnecessarily, and being truthful about what may be on my record.

This was over 16 years ago, so my memory isn't exactly fresh. I'm pretty sure they held us there while they figured out what was going on. Some of us were put in the squad car, not to detain us so much as to keep the four of us from changing our stories while the police questioned us individually. Once they were able to determine that it was just four stupid young boys that were harmless, they dropped us off into the custody of our parents down the block. This was a bright Sunday morning around 11 AM. That part I remember because we got in trouble for not being in church!

I need to find out what's on there (if anything) and I will report that. If there is nothing on there, I don't see the point of tying up the app with this information.

So.. the county clerk's office is where I need to go? Anyone know the procedure for pulling the records?

After that explanation, I seriously doubt you were arrested. FWIW, if you want to slow up your application, list things that the DPS won't be able to find any record of. They will wait as ong as it takes to get a response from the county in question.
I've seen that one.......

[KRM45]

Juveniles are not "arrested" in Texas... they are merely detained.

Um, I don't think so. That may be true under 10 years of age, but juveniles between age 10 and 17 can formally be arrested, as far as I know.

I'm not going to debate the Juvenile Justice Code, but you can read it here:
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/fa.toc.htm

The only place you will see the work arrest is as applies to "the rules of arrest" everything else is taken into custody, detained, etc...

Once you hit 17 it's a whole different ballgame.

[Skiprr]

Juveniles are not "arrested" in Texas... they are merely detained.

Um, I don't think so. That may be true under 10 years of age, but juveniles between age 10 and 17 can formally be arrested, as far as I know.

I'm not going to debate the Juvenile Justice Code, but you can read it here:
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/fa.toc.htm

A debate wasn't intend; sorry if you felt directly challenged. Maybe we can get a lawyer or LEO authority to clear it up. My point is that it can deleterious to others if EITHER of us is wrong about something stated as fact. Folks look here for information.

P.S. You may want to give a quick check of Title 3, §52.01, and a read-through of Chapter 58.

[KRM45]

P.S. You may want to give a quick check of Title 3, §52.01, and a read-through of Chapter 58.

I went through it in the police academy.

For the record though, I believe he should put it down on his application. I did, and it didn't delay me. I had no paperwork... No paperwork existed.