Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
Moderator: carlson1
-
Topic author - Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 4
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:02 pm
- Location: Texas
Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
It’s a long post, but if you are a bit anal, like I can be, and a tinkerer you may find the following interesting or beneficial.
In an effort to determine which factory ammunition I would use in my XDM 5.2, I tested a wide variety of factory 9mm ammunition as I don’t have the space or time to reload. I am looking for two things; an inexpensive ammo that shoots decent groups that I can use for practice and small local matches, then the best, as groups go, for major matches regardless of the cost – all the while hoping that the difference in point of impact between the two is close enough that I won’t have to adjust the sights to go from the practice ammunition to match ammunition. I also chronograph each to ensure it will make power factor as I was once almost disqualified at a major match with Winchester factory 185grain 45ACP target ammo which only squeaked by after several tries and a generous tester who could see that it was factory ammo and not powder puff hand loads.
I tested the following loads
Federal Aluminum 115 grain (which I suspect is the old CCI aluminum Blazer load)
American Eagle Brass 115 grain (actually a Federal load)
Blazer Brass 115 grain (was on sale at Academy and usually always in stock)
Monarch Brass 115 grain (a load my Glocks shoots well)
American Eagle 147 grain (again a Federal load)
Browning 147 grain (because of some internet posts)
American Eagle 124 grain (because supposedly the XDM barrel was designed for 124 grain?)
Sig Sauer Match Grade 147 grain (expensive, but tested because of some internet posts)
Freedom 124 grain Match (dropped because I could no longer reliably get it, but what I had did well)
Winchester White Box 115 grain (dropped due to mediocre group size and excessive recoil compared to others)
Of these loads Federal Aluminum 115grain is the cheapest when found at Wally World and the Sig Sauer the most expensive – and only available on line from Sig as far as I can tell. The Sig load was dropped after only two tests as it shot no better than the cheap Federal Aluminum load. The Freedom 124 grain Match load was dropped as I could no longer seem to get my hands on it which was a shame as it shot pretty well of two tests I did do – shame..
All testing is done freestyle (slow and deliberate) from 15 yards and Chrono is done 5 yards from shooting position. Only the first group is shot for bullet speed – if below or too close to IDPA power factor floor there is no point in continued testing. The way I test is to shoot three separate groups at different times then plot and average the group sizes - and group center point of impact deviations vertically and horizontally from the center of target (aiming point).
I do this differently than most shooters and I use a specific target I created to help me do this – one that fits on a regular sheet of typing paper and allows me to quickly calculate or determine the information I am looking for. The target has about a 2.5 inch orange center with one bold vertical and horizontal center stripe. The rest of the target is covered in 10mm grid squares in a light grey background that cannot be seen when shooting, but easily seen when measuring the load. I shoot three separate groups of 10 rounds in two 5 round magazines. I do this because I have noticed over the years that the first round out often prints in a slightly different place than the remaining rounds – an explanation for which I do not have other than the slide and barrel locking up differently when cycling normally verses chambering the first round. I also do not measure the widest distance between two holes, which I believe is a flawed way to determine group size of the bullet holes, but instead measure the distance of each hole from group center and then determine the average distance from group center.
I take each target, number the holes, then measure and record the vertical and horizontal deviation of each hole from target center. I can do this easily and without a ruler because of the 10mm grid squares printed on the target. When added up, I only have to move over one decimal point to get the average vertical and horizontal deviations. The intersection of these two deviations when drawn with a ruler across the target gives me the group’s center. I can then measure the distance from each hole to group center, add them up and again move over one decimal point (because there are 10 holes) to determine the average distance the holes are from group center. This is the final number I am looking for. It is not distance between the two holes the farthest apart, but the average distance the holes are from the group’s exact center. This keeps flyers from giving a false group size. Doing this whole process three different times and then averaging those three results reveals which ammunition really is the most accurate, and if the sights need to be move vertically or horizontally to make point of impact match point of aim. I know this sounds anal and time consuming, which it is, but I actually enjoy doing this work and it eliminates any ammo excuses.
The results are as follows, but keep in mind that it is from “my” Springfield XDM 5.2 and your results may be different. That being said I do believe good ammunition is good ammunition and should normally shoot better in a wide variety of pistols – and that being said, I have two Glocks that don’t both shoot their best groups with the same ammunition – weird I know. Note: IDPA Power Factor is 125,000 (weight of bullet times velocity)
American Eagle Brass 115 grain (about $9 a box at Wally World)
19.8mm average distance from group center (72 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
American Eagle Brass 124 grain (about $11 a box at Academy)
24.0mm average distance from group center (146 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
Browning 147 grain (about $14 a box at Academy)
25.0mm average distance from group center (182 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
Blazer Brass 115 grain (about $10 a box when on sale at Academy)
25.5mm average distance from group center (93 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
Federal Aluminum 115 grain (about $8 a box at Wally World)
28.2mm average distance from group center (85 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
Monarch Brass 115 grain (use to be cheap, but now about $12 a box at Academy)
28.2mm average distance from group center (135 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
American Eagle 147 grain (about $13 a box on line)
29.6mm average distance from group center (201 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
In the end I chose the American Eagle 115 grain for my major match ammunition not only because it showed the best groups, but because it has mild recoil, is readily available and is reasonably priced at Wally World (under $9 a box), but also because all three group centers fell within 3mm of being right on top of each other. In other words consistent from three different boxes purchased at three different times. It also only required me to move my sights one click left to match point of aim.
My practice ammo choice was the Federal Aluminum because is pretty close to the match load point of impact – about half inch high and one inch left at 15 yards from my chosen match ammunition choice at and as cheap as you will find 9mm factory ammo – again purchased from Wally World. I would be hard pressed to see a difference between the two out to 15 yards.
It was not surprising to me that the Federal loads did well overall. I have always had pretty good results with Federal ammunition and can pretty much say the same about the Academy Monarch ammunition.
In conclusion, if you don’t want to go through all I went through to ferret out a decent match load of factory ammunition, start with the Federal products and see how your toy likes them. No, I don’t work for Federal ammunition, I work for a beer company and if you want my recommendation on that, it’s simple – ZingenBock.
Good Luck, Stay Safe and May the Force be with You!
In an effort to determine which factory ammunition I would use in my XDM 5.2, I tested a wide variety of factory 9mm ammunition as I don’t have the space or time to reload. I am looking for two things; an inexpensive ammo that shoots decent groups that I can use for practice and small local matches, then the best, as groups go, for major matches regardless of the cost – all the while hoping that the difference in point of impact between the two is close enough that I won’t have to adjust the sights to go from the practice ammunition to match ammunition. I also chronograph each to ensure it will make power factor as I was once almost disqualified at a major match with Winchester factory 185grain 45ACP target ammo which only squeaked by after several tries and a generous tester who could see that it was factory ammo and not powder puff hand loads.
I tested the following loads
Federal Aluminum 115 grain (which I suspect is the old CCI aluminum Blazer load)
American Eagle Brass 115 grain (actually a Federal load)
Blazer Brass 115 grain (was on sale at Academy and usually always in stock)
Monarch Brass 115 grain (a load my Glocks shoots well)
American Eagle 147 grain (again a Federal load)
Browning 147 grain (because of some internet posts)
American Eagle 124 grain (because supposedly the XDM barrel was designed for 124 grain?)
Sig Sauer Match Grade 147 grain (expensive, but tested because of some internet posts)
Freedom 124 grain Match (dropped because I could no longer reliably get it, but what I had did well)
Winchester White Box 115 grain (dropped due to mediocre group size and excessive recoil compared to others)
Of these loads Federal Aluminum 115grain is the cheapest when found at Wally World and the Sig Sauer the most expensive – and only available on line from Sig as far as I can tell. The Sig load was dropped after only two tests as it shot no better than the cheap Federal Aluminum load. The Freedom 124 grain Match load was dropped as I could no longer seem to get my hands on it which was a shame as it shot pretty well of two tests I did do – shame..
All testing is done freestyle (slow and deliberate) from 15 yards and Chrono is done 5 yards from shooting position. Only the first group is shot for bullet speed – if below or too close to IDPA power factor floor there is no point in continued testing. The way I test is to shoot three separate groups at different times then plot and average the group sizes - and group center point of impact deviations vertically and horizontally from the center of target (aiming point).
I do this differently than most shooters and I use a specific target I created to help me do this – one that fits on a regular sheet of typing paper and allows me to quickly calculate or determine the information I am looking for. The target has about a 2.5 inch orange center with one bold vertical and horizontal center stripe. The rest of the target is covered in 10mm grid squares in a light grey background that cannot be seen when shooting, but easily seen when measuring the load. I shoot three separate groups of 10 rounds in two 5 round magazines. I do this because I have noticed over the years that the first round out often prints in a slightly different place than the remaining rounds – an explanation for which I do not have other than the slide and barrel locking up differently when cycling normally verses chambering the first round. I also do not measure the widest distance between two holes, which I believe is a flawed way to determine group size of the bullet holes, but instead measure the distance of each hole from group center and then determine the average distance from group center.
I take each target, number the holes, then measure and record the vertical and horizontal deviation of each hole from target center. I can do this easily and without a ruler because of the 10mm grid squares printed on the target. When added up, I only have to move over one decimal point to get the average vertical and horizontal deviations. The intersection of these two deviations when drawn with a ruler across the target gives me the group’s center. I can then measure the distance from each hole to group center, add them up and again move over one decimal point (because there are 10 holes) to determine the average distance the holes are from group center. This is the final number I am looking for. It is not distance between the two holes the farthest apart, but the average distance the holes are from the group’s exact center. This keeps flyers from giving a false group size. Doing this whole process three different times and then averaging those three results reveals which ammunition really is the most accurate, and if the sights need to be move vertically or horizontally to make point of impact match point of aim. I know this sounds anal and time consuming, which it is, but I actually enjoy doing this work and it eliminates any ammo excuses.
The results are as follows, but keep in mind that it is from “my” Springfield XDM 5.2 and your results may be different. That being said I do believe good ammunition is good ammunition and should normally shoot better in a wide variety of pistols – and that being said, I have two Glocks that don’t both shoot their best groups with the same ammunition – weird I know. Note: IDPA Power Factor is 125,000 (weight of bullet times velocity)
American Eagle Brass 115 grain (about $9 a box at Wally World)
19.8mm average distance from group center (72 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
American Eagle Brass 124 grain (about $11 a box at Academy)
24.0mm average distance from group center (146 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
Browning 147 grain (about $14 a box at Academy)
25.0mm average distance from group center (182 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
Blazer Brass 115 grain (about $10 a box when on sale at Academy)
25.5mm average distance from group center (93 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
Federal Aluminum 115 grain (about $8 a box at Wally World)
28.2mm average distance from group center (85 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
Monarch Brass 115 grain (use to be cheap, but now about $12 a box at Academy)
28.2mm average distance from group center (135 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
American Eagle 147 grain (about $13 a box on line)
29.6mm average distance from group center (201 feet per second over IDPA Power Factor)
In the end I chose the American Eagle 115 grain for my major match ammunition not only because it showed the best groups, but because it has mild recoil, is readily available and is reasonably priced at Wally World (under $9 a box), but also because all three group centers fell within 3mm of being right on top of each other. In other words consistent from three different boxes purchased at three different times. It also only required me to move my sights one click left to match point of aim.
My practice ammo choice was the Federal Aluminum because is pretty close to the match load point of impact – about half inch high and one inch left at 15 yards from my chosen match ammunition choice at and as cheap as you will find 9mm factory ammo – again purchased from Wally World. I would be hard pressed to see a difference between the two out to 15 yards.
It was not surprising to me that the Federal loads did well overall. I have always had pretty good results with Federal ammunition and can pretty much say the same about the Academy Monarch ammunition.
In conclusion, if you don’t want to go through all I went through to ferret out a decent match load of factory ammunition, start with the Federal products and see how your toy likes them. No, I don’t work for Federal ammunition, I work for a beer company and if you want my recommendation on that, it’s simple – ZingenBock.
Good Luck, Stay Safe and May the Force be with You!
There will be no peace until they love their children more than they hate us - Golda Meir
Re: Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
Consider one more brand, Fiocchi 115 gr. Very inexpensive and very good. I know you cant test everything though.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 2
- Posts: 6343
- Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:49 pm
- Location: Galveston
- Contact:
Re: Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
I am liking Federal a lot more these days for my 9mm and rifle ammo.Cheap and consistant. My 9mm guns I try to keep strictly to 124 grains, My longer barrelled semis just seem to be more accurate with it, (my 3" inch barrel it don't matter.) I was surprised at your assessment that the 115gr WWB had a heavy recoil. One of these days I just might try some aluminum, but every time I get near that stuff I can feel my EDC cringe, and maybe even cry just a little bit.
Thanks for your observations
Your beer recommendation is spot on.
Thanks for your observations
Your beer recommendation is spot on.
Liberty''s Blog
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 2
- Posts: 5350
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:23 pm
- Location: Johnson County, Texas
Re: Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
Good report, and thanks for doing the legwork for those, who may not have the time to test ammo so in depth.
I must, however, disagree, with your beer recommendation, I have done extensive testing on that subject, mainly because it can be done at home, with no required safety equipment, and I feel that AB, was so afraid of a small brewery in Shiner, Texas, that they felt they had to brew a beer, to compete. After several grueling hours of testing, I don't feel that they have succeeded. I still will take the Shiner, over the ZB. In fact, I have found that there are several craft brews, in Texas, that will put to shame, just about anything AB, has produced. JMHO
I must, however, disagree, with your beer recommendation, I have done extensive testing on that subject, mainly because it can be done at home, with no required safety equipment, and I feel that AB, was so afraid of a small brewery in Shiner, Texas, that they felt they had to brew a beer, to compete. After several grueling hours of testing, I don't feel that they have succeeded. I still will take the Shiner, over the ZB. In fact, I have found that there are several craft brews, in Texas, that will put to shame, just about anything AB, has produced. JMHO
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 2
- Posts: 3486
- Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:04 pm
- Location: Central Texas
Re: Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
As an intellectually curious type, I appreciate the detail and process.
Had to post something on topic so I could jump in and talk beer!
Used to drink both ZB and SB in years past. These days, I've gone the way of the craft beer... I find that I drink fewer, drink them slower and enjoy them more if they are full bodied, heavier beer. (love big, bold flavor, without being bitter) There are a number of great small & craft breweries in Tx! I also have a few favorites from San Diego.
Had to post something on topic so I could jump in and talk beer!
Used to drink both ZB and SB in years past. These days, I've gone the way of the craft beer... I find that I drink fewer, drink them slower and enjoy them more if they are full bodied, heavier beer. (love big, bold flavor, without being bitter) There are a number of great small & craft breweries in Tx! I also have a few favorites from San Diego.
Re: Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
FWIW, I buy a lot of Sellier & Bellot ammo for training/range use. Probably went through 2000-3000 rounds with less than 5 issues (don't know the exact number its so low I can't recall).
Beer: Texas - Revolver. Did try some Shiner not too long ago and liked it. Other states: Ballast Point from San Diego. Kinda sentimental choice because I was stationed on Ballas Point in the Navy.
Used to get a lot of different craft beers when I worked in St. Louis because several co-workers were really into beer and constantly gave me samples of beers they were trying.
The left lies about everything. Truth is a liberal value, and truth is a conservative value, but it has never been a left-wing value. People on the left say whatever advances their immediate agenda. Power is their moral lodestar; therefore, truth is always subservient to it. - Dennis Prager
-
Topic author - Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 4
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:02 pm
- Location: Texas
Re: Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
Jusme,
Just between you and me, I do like the Shiner product a little better, but because I work AB, I get my Zie for free - and after the first two.......
Other than that I am a bit partial to XX at certain times. AB is always looking for other brands to swallow up and there is no telling what might fall under their banner in the future.
Just between you and me, I do like the Shiner product a little better, but because I work AB, I get my Zie for free - and after the first two.......
Other than that I am a bit partial to XX at certain times. AB is always looking for other brands to swallow up and there is no telling what might fall under their banner in the future.
There will be no peace until they love their children more than they hate us - Golda Meir
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 2
- Posts: 5350
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:23 pm
- Location: Johnson County, Texas
Re: Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
TEX wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:04 pm Jusme,
Just between you and me, I do like the Shiner product a little better, but because I work AB, I get my Zie for free - and after the first two.......
Other than that I am a bit partial to XX at certain times. AB is always looking for other brands to swallow up and there is no telling what might fall under their banner in the future.
Yeah, my only issue with them, is that they have a bad habit of "squeezing" bars, and stores, to drop other brands, or they will drop them from their distributorship, through Ben E. Keith. I'm sure other big boy distributors do the same, but I know several places, "had" to switch to ZB, and drop SB.
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second
-
Topic author - Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 4
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:02 pm
- Location: Texas
Re: Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
rotor and flechero,
I have used Fiocchi in the past and it has been very reliably, but accuracy no better than others I have tried in my Glocks. Have not tried it however in my XDM. On yours and flechero's suggestion, I will probably pick up some Fiocchi and S&B and give it a try. My shotgun (870) for some reason loves S&B buckshot. I do like the Freedom Arms Match 124 grain, because it has proven accurate and has low recoil while making IDPA power factor, but like I said unless one of you folks knows where to get some it looks like it is not available at this time.
Liberty,
I have found the aluminum stuff to be pretty reliable, but as most of you know it is verboten at indoor ranges. The only issue I ever had with it, and this is a testament to Glock was my G23 was having a issue extracting the aluminum spent cases, but ran fine with brass cases. On closer inspection I found half of the extractor claw broken off. It was just ripping a chunk out of the aluminum case rim, but still yanking out the brass cases with no problem - kudos to Glock.
I may be wrong, but I believe the reason Winchester white box runs a little hotter is that may be the same basic load for the military although I was under the impression they used 124 grain. In a match the report from white box is noticeably louder than many other factory loads and if I load a magazine every other round white box and say Monarch, I can tell a difference. Would it make a difference in a match? - it is questionable and I tend to believe consistency and expected recoil may be more important that a little lower recoil.
I have used Fiocchi in the past and it has been very reliably, but accuracy no better than others I have tried in my Glocks. Have not tried it however in my XDM. On yours and flechero's suggestion, I will probably pick up some Fiocchi and S&B and give it a try. My shotgun (870) for some reason loves S&B buckshot. I do like the Freedom Arms Match 124 grain, because it has proven accurate and has low recoil while making IDPA power factor, but like I said unless one of you folks knows where to get some it looks like it is not available at this time.
Liberty,
I have found the aluminum stuff to be pretty reliable, but as most of you know it is verboten at indoor ranges. The only issue I ever had with it, and this is a testament to Glock was my G23 was having a issue extracting the aluminum spent cases, but ran fine with brass cases. On closer inspection I found half of the extractor claw broken off. It was just ripping a chunk out of the aluminum case rim, but still yanking out the brass cases with no problem - kudos to Glock.
I may be wrong, but I believe the reason Winchester white box runs a little hotter is that may be the same basic load for the military although I was under the impression they used 124 grain. In a match the report from white box is noticeably louder than many other factory loads and if I load a magazine every other round white box and say Monarch, I can tell a difference. Would it make a difference in a match? - it is questionable and I tend to believe consistency and expected recoil may be more important that a little lower recoil.
There will be no peace until they love their children more than they hate us - Golda Meir
-
Topic author - Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 4
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:02 pm
- Location: Texas
Re: Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
Jusme,
I am not delusional - I know I work for the evil empire : )
I am not delusional - I know I work for the evil empire : )
There will be no peace until they love their children more than they hate us - Golda Meir
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 2
- Posts: 6343
- Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:49 pm
- Location: Galveston
- Contact:
Re: Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
Winchester sells a 124gr NATO load in a white box, it runs a little hotter than the 115gr. I really like the 124, It has comparable recoil to my defensive loads, and in my longer barred handguns (Ruger P95 and Beretta 92fs) It seems to be tighter. I gotta wonder if maybe they mixed up a box of 115 with the 124 NATO rounds. I don't shoot competition and shoot between one or two boxes a month.TEX wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:25 pm
I may be wrong, but I believe the reason Winchester white box runs a little hotter is that may be the same basic load for the military although I was under the impression they used 124 grain. In a match the report from white box is noticeably louder than many other factory loads and if I load a magazine every other round white box and say Monarch, I can tell a difference. Would it make a difference in a match? - it is questionable and I tend to believe consistency and expected recoil may be more important that a little lower recoil.
Liberty''s Blog
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy
Re: Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
I like S&B buckshot too. I reload so aluminum is out. I don't like reloading S&B as it seems hard to load primers into at least on 9mm. Fiocchi 115 gr 9mm running just about $170+ per thousand with free delivery and no sales tax. Great plinking ammo. Also safe for my wife's ported Shield as much of the Federal, CCI and American Eagle is listed as not for use in ported barrels. To be honest, I haven't reloaded 9mm in some time since it is so inexpensive right now. Had HRC won it might be a different story.TEX wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:25 pm rotor and flechero,
I have used Fiocchi in the past and it has been very reliably, but accuracy no better than others I have tried in my Glocks. Have not tried it however in my XDM. On yours and flechero's suggestion, I will probably pick up some Fiocchi and S&B and give it a try. My shotgun (870) for some reason loves S&B buckshot. I do like the Freedom Arms Match 124 grain, because it has proven accurate and has low recoil while making IDPA power factor, but like I said unless one of you folks knows where to get some it looks like it is not available at this time.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 2
- Posts: 3486
- Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:04 pm
- Location: Central Texas
Re: Testing 9mm Loads in my XDM 5.2
For whatever it's worth, I have only shot Fiocchi in 45acp... and bought it by the case. It was inexpensive, 100% reliable and it shot accurate and clean in my 1911's. (2 thumbs up from me!) If I wasn't loading myself, I'd buy another case or 3, for sure. Only shot S & B in 9mm. Shot fine but don't recall if anything stood out.TEX wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:25 pm rotor and flechero,
I have used Fiocchi in the past and it has been very reliably, but accuracy no better than others I have tried in my Glocks. Have not tried it however in my XDM. On yours and flechero's suggestion, I will probably pick up some Fiocchi and S&B and give it a try. My shotgun (870) for some reason loves S&B buckshot. I do like the Freedom Arms Match 124 grain, because it has proven accurate and has low recoil while making IDPA power factor, but like I said unless one of you folks knows where to get some it looks like it is not available at this time.