POTUS's Afghan Speech Tonight

[Oldgringo]

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:

It seems to me that the troop surge announced in tonight's speech may do some good,
but when 2011 rolls around we're going to leave and let the Afghans kill each other any way they
want.

Exactly. No one is going to 'win the hearts and minds' of any invaded country. Would we welcome an invader to the good 'ol USA? Most of us would object in some form or another.

It's time for us, the USA, to accept the fact that we are not the long term world police nor are we forever our 'brother's keeper'. If the subject peoples, whomever they may be, won't help themselves by date certain; then, "that's the way things are" and we should go on about our business.

Wars are for winning.

[Lodge2004]

It is very strange...the typical ANA Soldier (we had a company attached to our FOB) appears to have no marksmanship skills. The typical Pashtun Insurgent (there are plenty of groups besides the Taliban and Al Qaeda fighting us) has a reputation for being fierce Marksmen throughout the centuries. It makes me wonder where we are pulling the ANA recruits from (there are many ethnic groups in Afghanistan, which is another issue when trying to unify a country).

If the situation were reversed, i.e. the U.S. was in the midst of a revolution and a foreign power was attempting to occupy/pacify the country, I'd guess the true fighters would be those firing on the foreign troops. Those who were traditionally not inclined to fight but were looking for a paycheck would be the prime candidates for joining the military organized by the foreign power.

[Zee]

I'm not aware of any definition given for "winning" in Iraq or Afghanistan. Its hard to get there when you're not sure where you're going. "Hearts and Minds" sounds like a jeweler's ad, not a plan.

Are we winning/losing
War on drugs
War on poverty
War on terror
War on cancer

[casingpoint]

Moscow-Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin was found dead this morning in his private dacha outside Moscow after the former KGB chief apparently kicked the bucket in a fit of laughter during President Barack Obama's speech on new U.S. military strategy in Afghanistan. Investigators found a note scrawled on a piece of scrap paper that said, "Been there, done that, Bozo."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1202/p02s01-usmi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[stroo]

I thought Obama's speech was pretty uninspiringly although it did clearly lay out what he wants to do. From a strategic point of view, his approach fails completely. First, he didn't define winning although we are adopting a counter insurgency strategy. Second, to succeed a counter insurgency strategy requires time and an assurance to the populace that we will protect them for the long term. Telling everyone we are going to begin to withdraw after 18 months completely undercuts these requirements. As such, it is also wasting the lives of the troops over there. Third, Afganistan is not a nation except on a map. Every valley is almost a separate tribe. And each tribe views outsiders (which include both us, Al Queda and often the Taliban) with suspicion. Given that, a counterinsurgency strategy won't work unless you have about fifty years to build roads and other infrastructure that is necessary to build a nation.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Purplehood said "the average ANA soldier has no marksmanship skills."

American military personnel in Iraq made similar comments. They said that the Iraqi
insurgents would be much more deadly if they used more aimed fire.

Apparently the insurgents would spray fire from their AK's but not very accurately.
Of course when the lead is flying, someone's going to get hit.

SIA

[mr.72]

As a rule, we don't have the right to opt out of taxes used to fund things we do not support. Likewise, we can't be expected to opt-in for those things which we do support.

I will be fully in support of a change to the means of funding Federal government activity such that we can decide to fund those things which we support on an individual basis, including the war effort in whatever country and every single other thing the government does.

However the suggestion that we fund the war effort with a "war tax" is just another way to punish those who make money, and by the way, who do not vote for Democrats. Passing a tax increase is predictably easy, as long as that tax increase only applies to a minority of voters, particularly a minority of voters who all happen to belong to the same political party, conveniently the one not attempting to pass the tax increase.

You can expect a whole litany of tax increases that are applied the overlap of a minority of voters who are also Republicans (or at least not Democrats) to be pushed through over the next three years and change. If you are a member of this forum and are not on welfare, you are going to have your taxes increased. Count on it.

Change we can believe in!!

[Purplehood]

Purplehood said "the average ANA soldier has no marksmanship skills."

American military personnel in Iraq made similar comments. They said that the Iraqi
insurgents would be much more deadly if they used more aimed fire.

Apparently the insurgents would spray fire from their AK's but not very accurately.
Of course when the lead is flying, someone's going to get hit.

SIA

The prevailing rumor is that Arabs are famed for a tendency to spray and pray, effectively relying on Allah's will to hit the enemy (I am not joking).
The typical Afghan (who is not an Arab) is reknown for marksmanship skills, particularly among the Pashtun tribes. However, Afghanistan is made up of a hodge-podge of cultural ethnicities (5 major languages) and it is my belief/suspicion that the ANA is comprised of a majority of the non-Pashtun tribes or at the very least the least-favored among Pashtuns.

[casingpoint]

Obama's speech was more directed towards politics than winning a war. Seems he did mention something about a national sacrifice. Borrowing a like from Donna Schalala of the Clinton administration, maybe they won't "get any of the good ones."

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Purplehood:
If the average Afghan is renowned for his marksmanship skills, this
would indicate that he's using something other than an AK.

Do you know the weapons with which they show off their marksmanship?

SIA

[Purplehood]

Purplehood:
If the average Afghan is renowned for his marksmanship skills, this
would indicate that he's using something other than an AK.

Do you know the weapons with which they show off their marksmanship?

SIA

They have had this reputation for centuries. It is generally whatever you put in their hand. I want to say that out of the Muslim ethnicities they and the Moro's (Phillipines) are the only ones that actually aim and rely on themselves (and not Allah) to be on target. Not sure about the Moro's, so consider it hearsay.

[Charles L. Cotton]

The speech was just one more opportunity for Obama to tell the world what a dirt-bag country the U.S. was prior to his election; to blame Bush for every evil on the globe; to publicly proclaim Islam as "one of the world's great religions," to lie about a new "war tax;" and to patronize American service men and women and profiteer (politically speaking) on their blood. He was a consummate liar during the campaign and he hasn't changed since taking office.

As for a special tax -- not on your life! Pay for the war by cutting wasteful spending for social programs that have succeeded only in creating a second "entitlement" generation, many of whom are not even legally in the U.S.

As for a timetable, he just gave terrorists the road map to victory -- just wait until we pull out. Then move back in and set up shop with terrorist training camps, as well as financial and arms supply lines.

/rant

Chas.

[TLynnHughes]

The speech was just one more opportunity for Obama to tell the world what a dirt-bag country the U.S. was prior to his election; to blame Bush for every evil on the globe; to publicly proclaim Islam as "one of the world's great religions," to lie about a new "war tax;" and to patronize American service men and women and profiteer (politically speaking) on their blood. He was a consummate liar during the campaign and he hasn't changed since taking office.

As for a special tax -- not on your life! Pay for the war by cutting wasteful spending for social programs that have succeeded only in creating a second "entitlement" generation, many of whom are not even legally in the U.S.

As for a timetable, he just gave terrorists the road map to victory -- just wait until we pull out. Then move back in and set up shop with terrorist training camps, as well as financial and arms supply lines.

/rant

Chas.

Thank you!

T.

[Oldgringo]

The speech was just one more opportunity for Obama to tell the world what a dirt-bag country the U.S. was prior to his election; to blame Bush for every evil on the globe; to publicly proclaim Islam as "one of the world's great religions," to lie about a new "war tax;" and to patronize American service men and women and profiteer (politically speaking) on their blood. He was a consummate liar during the campaign and he hasn't changed since taking office.

As for a special tax -- not on your life! Pay for the war by cutting wasteful spending for social programs that have succeeded only in creating a second "entitlement" generation, many of whom are not even legally in the U.S.

As for a timetable, he just gave terrorists the road map to victory -- just wait until we pull out. Then move back in and set up shop with terrorist training camps, as well as financial and arms supply lines.

/rant

Chas.

With all due respect, I do not disagree with you in your assessment of the man.

That said, surely this war for the benefit of ingrates at the expense of American money and lives should not go on forever? It is said that God helps those who help themselves. How long are we (USA) to shore up corrupt and uncaring groups of nomads with American dollars and lives before they start taking care of their business? Afghanistan was the USSR's Waterloo, do we not learn from history? Did we not learn anything from our decade long Viet Nam outing? The USA is not the world police.

If it was up to me, we'd nuke 'em and let Allah sort 'em out...which is only one of many reasons that I'm not the POTUS. What do you propose?

[surprise_i'm_armed]

The Afghan war started out chasing out the Taliban that had
given Al-Qaeda (sp?) a safe haven.

It seems that we are now on a nation building expedition, but
the democracy we'd like to foster has teamed us with a guy who
stole the election, and whose brother is a major league opium
mover.

It would be great if the US could instill democracy in places we
would like to see it.

But if people aren't willing to fight for democracy, and if they allow
themselves to live in 700 AD theocracies, then the US should stop
enriching Halliburton, KBR, and the defense contractors and save
the money.

Theocracy kills democracy.

SIA