Class Debate: Me vs. Liberals

[snatchel]

This is the summary of a discussion in class from yesterday. I record my lectures, so I am quoting off of the audio file. Should provide for amusement:

Professor: "So who thinks that the democrats are stonewalling the progression of a bill to fix the economy?"
Sam: "I do. The republicans are holding onto the Bush Era taxes and ignore everything else..."
Me: " Are you referring to raising taxes on those making $250,000 a year that the democrats keep proposing?"
Sam: "Yeah...I pay more taxes than they do, and I work at Starbucks. This isn't fair. If we want to be serious about fixing the economy, we
need to seriously look at raising taxes for those that are blessed."
Me: " So you are telling us that by raising taxes on the rich, the deficit will magically be paid off?"
Sam: "No.... we need to cut spending too."
Me: "Even if the '1%' pay $500,000 more in taxes a year, there would be no significant reduction of debt. Think about it, Sam. Cutting
spending, yes. We can start there ... "
Sam: "It's not fair that the rich get to pay LESS taxes when they are sending jobs overseas though. They need to do their part."
Professor: "Give us an example, Sam"
Sam: "Apple."
Me: "Are you suggesting that American needs to bring production and industrial work should be brought back to the US"
Sam: " Well, yes. Americans can do that job, and it will help the economy"
Me: "Bringing assembly jobs and the like back to America is a pipe dream. Why would a company bring assembly work like putting together
iPhones to America when they can send those jobs overseas? They can build them cheaper, pay cheaper labor, and make a better
profit."
Sam: "See, that is the problem right there. Why aren't these rich CEO's not throwing Americans a bone? They could probably afford to spend
a little more on payroll and still make plenty of profit. But no, they send the job to China where they can screw their workers over.
Me: " Why should they?"
Sam: " You don't think they have some moral obligation to help out Americans. You are a christian, what happend to charity and helping
others?"
Me: "Are you really going there, Sam?"
Sam: "All I'm saying is walk the walk.."
Class: " ooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOoooooo" (well... amongst laughter and such.)
Me: " Please explain to me why if I were a business owner, I would have some moral obligation to throw someone a bone? Why would I do
that? To help someone out? You want me to pay $12 an hour for someone to assemble an iPhone when I can pay someone in China
$5 an hour to do the same thing? This goes against my business model. As a CEO, my job is to make money. That is it. Don't get
me wrong, I understand that the rich should be charitable, but they are not obligated to. It's not my responsibility to babysit America.
We have known for a while now that the future of American jobs lies in technology, engineering, and things like that. The days of
graduating high school and going to work for Company X .. and make enough to get by are over.
Sam: "So a business owner has zero obligation to do some good for those that aren't as fortunate.."
Me: ".... YOu know what? Topic shift. This is a circular debate anyway. I guess I'm part of a minority to think that being rich is not a
criminal act, and that if I want something good for myself, I will have to go earn it. This charity stuff is a big part of why America
is so in debt... and you are suggesting that Apple and other big companies make it part of their business plan. This makes me sick.."
Class/Professor: ******crickets*********

Anyway. I edited it as much as I could. Y'all wanna talk about a welfare nation? This is it. I just don't understand how it went from, "I want something real bad. I'm going to have to busy my bottom and WORK for it..." to, "I want something real bad. That guys has it, why shouldn't I be given it too?"

[RoyGBiv]

I just don't understand how it went from, "I want something real bad. I'm going to have to busy my bottom and WORK for it..." to, "I want something real bad. That guys has it, why shouldn't I be given it too?"

1. The demise of the 2-parent family unit
1a. The demise of the extended family unit (how many of the parents reading this live nearby your parents and siblings?, not I)
2. The upsurge in both parents working during their childrens' formative years.
3. The combination of #1 and #2 to yield kids that are not sufficiently taught the golden rule, real work ethic and are frequently spoiled as guilty compensation for #2.
4. Societal acceptance (promotion.!) of declining standards, both socially and in work/education.
** Note: I'm 1,000% certain our parents had the same complaints about our generation, but IMO, the decline has been accelerating over the past 25 years.

It's very hard work being involved enough to properly shape a growing child's life. The TIME required cannot be replaced by toys, electronic babysitters, teachers with their own social agenda, or, sadly, a social environment where everyone's special snowflake gets a trophy at the end of the season. Add the pressures of single parenthood or dual-working parents and it's even more so.

I'm sure I left lots of stuff out, but, IMO, the decline of the family unit is the major cause... What are the reasons for the decline of the family unit? ...

One man's considered opinion : http://catholiceducation.org/articles/m ... f0002.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ark03]

What class was this in?

[lama]

12/hr? Accourding to the Bureau of Labor Stats the average American manufacturing worker costs a company over 33/hr. This includes all benefits and taxes along with wages but 12/hr is wildly low.

Good for you for changing the subject. As they say "Never argue with stupid people. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

[psijac]

You see a bum on the street. You feel bad for him so you give in $20. At the next block album puts a gun to your head and demands $40. That my friend is the difference between. Charity and taxes

[punkndisorderly]

More like a police officer at the direction of a politician takes $40 from you at gunpoint. The politician takes the $40. Then he gives $10 to a bum at a press conference so people can see how much he cares. The remaining $30 goes to his cronies. Once out of office, he gets an advisory spot on the board of his cronies company paying him $15.

[The Annoyed Man]

Snatchel, tell Sam you know a self-employed small businessman who is just scraping by, who wrote two checks to the IRS this year. One was a check for $13,181.00 which was paid out of his retirement account on October 15, at the end of the late filing period. The payment was late because the bookkeeper your friend had hired had completely screwed up his books, and it took 6 months to get it all sorted out. The other check was for an IRS invoice which arrived 2 weeks later for $599.00 for "interest and penalties" for not having had my tax situation figured out by April 15. That's a total of $13,780.00. That self employed businessman cannot afford health insurance, so he is going to have to pay a Obamacare penalty in 2013. That $13,780.00 would have bought him a VERY GOOD health insurance plan with money left over. The money left over could have been used to hire someone like Sam part time to help your friend get his work out faster.

Instead, that $13,780.00 will be used to give free stuff to people who don't work, and health insurance to other people while your friend goes without it, etc., etc., etc.

Tell Sam that until he stops thinking about what he can TAKE instead of what he can GIVE, he will never have what it takes to be a business owner or a leader in his community. Tell him that the road to success is not for the faint of heart. Cowboy up.

[snatchel]

Snatchel, tell Sam you know a self-employed small businessman who is just scraping by, who wrote two checks to the IRS this year. One was a check for $13,181.00 which was paid out of his retirement account on October 15, at the end of the late filing period. The payment was late because the bookkeeper your friend had hired had completely screwed up his books, and it took 6 months to get it all sorted out. The other check was for an IRS invoice which arrived 2 weeks later for $599.00 for "interest and penalties" for not having had my tax situation figured out by April 15. That's a total of $13,780.00. That self employed businessman cannot afford health insurance, so he is going to have to pay a Obamacare penalty in 2013. That $13,780.00 would have bought him a VERY GOOD health insurance plan with money left over. The money left over could have been used to hire someone like Sam part time to help your friend get his work out faster.

Instead, that $13,780.00 will be used to give free stuff to people who don't work, and health insurance to other people while your friend goes without it, etc., etc., etc.

Tell Sam that until he stops thinking about what he can TAKE instead of what he can GIVE, he will never have what it takes to be a business owner or a leader in his community. Tell him that the road to success is not for the faint of heart. Cowboy up.

If you don't mind, I will use this next time it comes up.

This was a History class. Funny enough, an Environmental History class....... and the professor is surprisingly Conservative. No matter...

[LainD]

Snatchel, you are not at a certain red and black college up in the panhandle are you? Sam sounds an awful lot like the ninnies I have to sit in class with everyday. I finally decided to stop arguing with the morons since they never seem to have enough brain to learn anything that isn't dripping in liberalism. Good conversation though. I had a class once with a kid that though he know how the world turned and tried to explain how taxes worked. The very conservative professor actually laughed at him because of the stupidity of what this kid was saying. Turns out the guy had never held a job in his life. It is startling to discover just how many of the kids in college have never had a job or just work part time for pocket money and live on loans. I now understand why college students (not this one) are drowning in debt: they think it is child abuse to actually work. Our country is going down the tubes fast as work ethic and family values becomes a thing of the past.

[OldCurlyWolf]

Snatchel, tell Sam you know a self-employed small businessman who is just scraping by, who wrote two checks to the IRS this year. One was a check for $13,181.00 which was paid out of his retirement account on October 15, at the end of the late filing period. The payment was late because the bookkeeper your friend had hired had completely screwed up his books, and it took 6 months to get it all sorted out. The other check was for an IRS invoice which arrived 2 weeks later for $599.00 for "interest and penalties" for not having had my tax situation figured out by April 15. That's a total of $13,780.00. That self employed businessman cannot afford health insurance, so he is going to have to pay a Obamacare penalty in 2013. That $13,780.00 would have bought him a VERY GOOD health insurance plan with money left over. The money left over could have been used to hire someone like Sam part time to help your friend get his work out faster.

Instead, that $13,780.00 will be used to give free stuff to people who don't work, and health insurance to other people while your friend goes without it, etc., etc., etc.

Tell Sam that until he stops thinking about what he can TAKE instead of what he can GIVE, he will never have what it takes to be a business owner or a leader in his community. Tell him that the road to success is not for the faint of heart. Cowboy up.

If you don't mind, I will use this next time it comes up.

This was a History class. Funny enough, an Environmental History class....... and the professor is surprisingly Conservative. No matter...

Most true environmentalists are also conservationists and conservative by nature.

[sjfcontrol]

Tell that to Albert Gore.

[baldeagle]

Tell that to Albert Gore.

Why? He's not an environmentalist at all. He's a scam artist, taking advantage of the idiocy of so many in the world to enrich himself while he lives a lifestyle that is the antithesis of what he preaches. His home consumes enough electricity to fuel 12 houses, and he's hardly ever there. He jets around the world consuming tons of fuel rather than fly commercial so he can milk more of the fools for more money with his carbon credits scam.

[sjfcontrol]

Why? Because it had to be said! (Thanks!)

[Thomas]

Tell that to Albert Gore.

He jets around the world consuming tons of fuel rather than fly commercial

Except when he's on his way to a Global Warming / Climate Change conference and it get's snowed out

[snatchel]

LainD--

Nope, not at Tech... but I am at a Blue & Gold school that is owned by them. Angelo State University.