Legal Sign? (pics)

[Scott in Houston]

So, at a large mall on the west side of Houston (Katy Mills) they have these signs posted at mall entrances. Oddly, the anchor stores don't have signs so if you enter through Bass Pro or Burlington Coat Factory (or other stores) you won't see any signs.

The signs are close to legal, but not quite... IMO. Just looking for input. Would you carry here?



Looks good so far right?

I didn't have a tape measure, so I used a 5 dollar bill for reference. The capital letters go to this point on a 5 dollar bill.



Then, when I put a tape measure up to the 5 dollar bill, you can see it's well short of one inch, making the sign invalid, right?





Opinions? Would you carry or would this be a 'test case' type scenario that's probably not worth it?

[s197winstang]

The way Houston is going not carrying is not worth it. If it were in any other city I would say close enough to respect the property owners wishes. Houston- either carry or go to another mall. JMO and no disrespect to the fine citizens law abiding citizens of Houston. I feel for you.

[Sewer_Ice]

Katy Mills is owned by the same mall as Grapevine Mills, which I live 5min from...
Apparently (at least I've been told), that Grapevine PD doesn't care that it's an improper sign, they will arrest anyways. Sure, you can beat the time and not the ride, but why spend the money on a lawyer. Take your business elsewhere.

That or call Katy PD and inform them of the improper sign, and inquire what they're policy is.

[pbwalker]

The measurement of the letters is one thing I will not test (in regards to whether to carry or not).

My $0.02

[dicion]

Wording Is wrong.

4413 29ee is no longer the law.
It is now Section 411 Gov't code.

Therefore not valid.
Carry away, but keep in mind, I'm sure the people that have it up believe it to be valid.

Rap/Ride and all that fun stuff.

[chabouk]

Wording Is wrong.

4413 29ee is no longer the law.
It is now Section 411 Gov't code.

That wording never was the law. When 30.06 passed, the "Vernon's Revised Statutes" language was obsolete.

The letter size isn't close; it's well under the required size. The language doesn't meet the statute.

That said, the Mills Malls ownership (Simon Property Group) has a nationwide anti-gun policy, and they will not be budged from it. I prefer to spend my money elsewhere.

[57Coastie]

So, at a large mall on the west side of Houston (Katy Mills) they have these signs posted at mall entrances. Oddly, the anchor stores don't have signs so if you enter through Bass Pro or Burlington Coat Factory (or other stores) you won't see any signs.

The signs are close to legal, but not quite... IMO.

SNIP

Just to pick nits. The signs are perfectly "legal." There is nothing "illegal" about the signs. They may not provide proper 30.06 notice, but an owner may post (within limits not applicable here) any kind of sign he wants to post.

As is correctly pointed out without any emphasis in the other responses to this post, the word to use is "valid" rather than "legal." Sloppy language causes misunderstanding. Some new CHLers pick up this sloppy language from their instructor, which I know as a fact.

Respectfully,

Jim

[joe817]

Agreed Coastie. Invalid is the operative word. The sign is invalid, and if taken to court because you were arrested while carrying in that mall, in all likelihood you'd be acquitted and set free and get your gun back.

Is it to be ignored? Well, that's up to you. If the police view it as valid, then you are fair game to be arrested, IMO.
The next question should be what kind of payment plan can you work out with your criminal defense attorney when you are(arrested)? It can be an expensive proposition.

[cbunt1]

IMHO:

The sign's invalid. I know the sentiment of the property owners though. You'll eventually beat the rap (if you can afford it...remember that the "law" is what a local prosecutor says it is, and justice comes to those who can afford it), but you won't beat the ride.

I won't go to any of the "Mills Mauls" because of their attitude and preferences. There are too many other malls in the Houston area that are CHL-Friendly.

--Chris

[MoJo]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, There is very little a a mall that can't be found at another store. I refuse to enter "Target rich criminal empowerment zones"

[cbr600]

I won't go to any of the "Mills Mauls" because of their attitude and preferences. There are too many other malls in the Houston area that are CHL-Friendly.

Keep in mind that the same company owns/operates The Galleria.
http://www.simon.com/search/searchresul ... 77024&r=20

[austin-tatious]

Interesting. I frequent a Simon owned mall in Austin...Barton Creek. I have not seen any 30.06 signs there at any entrance or inside the mall. Why do you suppose Katy Mills and the Grapvine place do have them? Does the Simon company perhaps actually own them but only manages Barton Creek?

There are other Simon locations I also go to here, but they are not what I consider to technically be malls (an large enclosed climate-controlled shopping center where cannot enter the majority of the stores directly from the parking area). They are all "outdoor" malls, and they also do not have the signs.

[cbunt1]

I won't go to any of the "Mills Mauls" because of their attitude and preferences. There are too many other malls in the Houston area that are CHL-Friendly.

Keep in mind that the same company owns/operates The Galleria.
http://www.simon.com/search/searchresul ... 77024&r=20

True. But the Houston Galleria is very specifically *not* posted with any 30.06 notices. The only reference to handguns or other weapons is on a generic sign posted on a few entrances from the main parking garage, along with the generic no loitering and no drugs messages.

I see the obvious "Gunny Sacks" there almost every day...

[57Coastie]

...remember that the "law" is what a local prosecutor says it is,...

We hear these words, or similar, time and again here on the forum. This is either incorrect or, at best, incomplete.

Local prosecutors do not make the law. The law is not what a local prosecutor says it is. The local prosecutor interprets the law -- sometimes right and sometimes wrong. In general it may be correct to say that the local LEOs enforce the law as interpreted by the local prosecutor, but even that does not make that interpretation correct. We who have been here on the forum a while had a good example of the latter when the law then applicable to carrying handguns in an automobile was "interpreted" by an ex-Harris County DA.

In the judicial process the next interpreter of the law is the judge, and again sometimes the judge gets it right, and sometimes he gets it wrong. Ultimately, when/if the issue is decided by the highest court in the particular "chain of command" we finally know the "correct" interpretation of the law -- until the legislature says "You're wrong, judge, and here is an amended statute saying so."

Legal folderol? Possibly. But when the law is stated incorrectly on the Internet again and again, it become believed by some readers. And the statement under consideration can cause you real problems if it is taken as gospel.

I criticize nobody. I think that most of those who have used this sloppy language do not do it out of their ignorance; I think it is really meant to be a shorthand, but incorrect, way of saying, "When the cop/DA interprets the law wrong, be prepared to take the ride, being booked, locked up a bit with not the best members of our society, followed by a very expensive acquittal."

That is, "How to support your local criminal lawyer."

With respect,

Jim

[oneshooter]

I think that most of those who have used this sloppy language do not do it out of their ignorance; I think it is really meant to be a shorthand, but incorrect, way of saying, "When the cop/DA interprets the law wrong, be prepared to take the ride, being booked, locked up a bit with not the best members of our society, followed by a very expensive acquittal."

If it is a "poorly worded" sign, and you are arrested, tried, and found innocent or not guilty, would you then have legal standing to sue the mall owners?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas