Round Count/Placement when responding

[yerasimos]

And if a couple to the torso don't do it, I am going for the femoral artery. You hit the femoral in the upper pelvic region, they drop almost immediately and if they don't behave, they stop permenantly.

I do not claim to be a somebody or anybody special here, but I do not share your confidence in the femoral artery/upper pelvic region as an immediate go-to secondary target.

Realize that both IDPA and IPSC targets, which are vaguely humanoid (I know these organizations' may protest to the contrary, but that is another bunny-trail), place the highest values on center-chest and head/neck type shots. There is no A-zone or -0 portion at the bottom edge of their targets corresponding to femoral or pelvic shots. I would consider this to be a clue.

According to Gabe Suarez (admittedly a very controversial figure in the training community, but I respect his opinion and research on this subject), the pelvis is a tough, solid bony ring structure, which would have to be struck by handgun bullets in exactly two small places to possibly cause destabilization and skeletal collapse.

The femoral artery is a blood vessel carrying high-oxygen blood from the heart to the leg and foot. Compromising this with a gunshot wound will cause a lot of bleeding, which is ultimately in your favor, but until he finishes bleeding out, this opponent is still foot-mobile and can continue to attack you using his arms in whatever method that prompted you to begin and continue to shoot him, weapon or no weapon.

Transitioning to the head/neck as the preferred secondary target is considered to be a higher-percentage method of deactivating an opponent. Here, you have a stronger opportunity for a psychological stop ("He shot me in the face, whoa, this is serious . . . ") but far more importantly, you can deliver a piece of lead into the brain cavity or through the upper spinal cord, which offers the opportunity for an immediate physiological stop (brain cannot send signals to trigger finger, arms, legs, etc). The head/neck area is admittedly smaller than the pelvis/upper thigh area, but I calculate the effort/yield balance still favors targeting the head/neck before pelvis/upper thigh.

As far as media and jury perception matters, I believe it is better to sit in front of a jury and deal with media and prosecution howls about "execution" or "assassination" shots to the head, than to die at the hands of attackers who finished you off after absorbing double-taps to the chest and running through pelvic or upper thigh GSWs.

As I see it, target priority is the upper thoracic cavity, closely followed by the head/neck, with the pelvis and upper thighs as distant tertiary target choices. I do not see this as being bloodthirsty or callous, but the result of making thoughtful, informed decisions to do what is effective in a certain situation that I would like to continue to avoid.

[ELB]

I haven't gone out to shoot a statistically valid sample of violent criminal actors, using various methods, e.g. 2 and reassess, mozambique etc, so I go off of what John Farnam trained me with. It makes sense to me, so I will do my best to explain what I was taught. I will claim any errors in the following, don't blame John.

Overall, shoot until the threat is neutralized.

First off, what is the best way to "neutralize"? Two basic methods: disrupt the Central Nervous System (CNS), or ventilate the major blood paths so the VCA passes out from loss of blood. Pyschological effects are gravy if you can get them, but not to be depended on.

Secondly, some major components of the CNS (i.e. the spinal cord) and major blood pathways (the aorta and the vena cava) are located conveniently closely together on the centerline of the body, as viewed from the front.

Thirdly, in a dynamic situation like a gunfight, it will be difficult to ensure that you can put a single round exactly where it is needed (CNS) to immediately neutralize a VCA. Mulitple shots increases your CNS hit potential. Loss of blood doesn't equate to immediate neutralization, need a few seconds, but the faster the blood goes out the better. So multiple shots are recommended.

Fourthly, the VCA will be shooting or fighting back (after all, the reason you are shooting at him is because he presents an imminent deadly threat.) If you stay where you are, you make it easier for him. There's probably a reason he launched his attack when you are in a specific location, and he expects to find you there. So don't be there.

Fifthly (is "fifthly" a word?) Handgun rounds are fairly anemic as fight stoppers, even the .45 ACP. Most people shot with handguns survive, and a fair number inflict considerable damage AFTER being shot. So again, multiple shots are recommended.

So, this all gets combined into the following BASIC tactic, once you've decided you need to draw and shoot:

1. MOVE laterally as you draw. Get off the line of force, move from where your opponent expects you to be.

2. [Assuming your opponent didn't flee when you drew] Quickly and accurately fire four shots on the centerline of your opponent's body, starting approximately at the beltline and moving to the upper chest, spaced more or less equally. This is called a "zipper". Why four? Could be three, could be five, but John recommends four as a good compromise between putting "enough" shots on target and standing too long in one place.

3. MOVE laterally again, assessing whether your opponent is neutralized, whether there are other threats (including behind you) that you haven't seen yet (scanning), reloading if necessary, clearing a jam if necessary. Stop and shoot four more if required. MOVE again while scanning.

4. Repeat as necessary (shoot until the threat is neutralized).

Obviously the basic tactic has to be tweaked according to the situation. If your opponent is not directly facing you, you have to adjust the "zipper" aiming point so as to strike the major blood vessels or CNS. If you conclude torso shots are not going to get it done (body armor? too much fat/muscle to penetrate?), then head shots might be needed. Also, by moving around, you might have brought yourself to cover or an escape route, so maybe you can just boogie on out of there. But the basic, or as BrassMonkey called it, the "initial" tactic is move&scan-zipper-move&scan.


As I said, I haven't tested this myself, but from what John has taught me, and what I have read from other people I consider knowledgeable, this seems like the best initial tactic.

elb

[stevie_d_64]

"A stitch in 9mm, saves time..." Or something like that...

Somehow I am not too worried about counting rounds expended or shot placement (even though its very important)...

When the threat "stops" being a threat, thats the goal...

[Liberty]

Overall, shoot until the threat is neutralized.

Good post, the only thing that isn't real clear is: When do we concider the BG neutralized?

When he Turns and runns away?
When he is obviously Dead?
When he isn't moving any more?
WHile he is still twitching?
When he no longer has control of a weapon?

I would tend to buy into, When the bad guy no longer an immediate threat to me or others around me. I guess what I don't understand is what is the meaning of neutralized?

[cbr600]

I would tend to buy into, When the bad guy no longer an immediate threat to me or others around me. I guess what I don't understand is what is the meaning of neutralized?

I consider "neutralized" and "no longer a threat" synonymous.

He has been neutralized when I no longer fear death or serious bodily injury as a result of his actions. That can take many forms. He could be unconscious or dead. He could escape. I could escape. Et cetera.

[stevie_d_64]

I believe it also looks good when you are rendering first aid to one or more sucking chest wound(s) as all that attention rolls into the scene...

But thats just me...

[Lucky45]

I believe it also looks good when you are rendering first aid to one or more sucking chest wound(s) as all that attention rolls into the scene...

But thats just me...

Are you serious??? With all the blood borne diseases around these days, the only aid you are getting is me calling 911. They are the professionals in the bio-hazard gear. I will be in the vicinity waiting.

[BrassMonkey]

I agree on the render aid. IF I have gloves and a bag mask and all that with me.

I believe it also looks good when you are rendering first aid to one or more sucking chest wound(s) as all that attention rolls into the scene...

But thats just me...

[Photoman]

Shoot to lockback or until the threat is no longer a threat. There is no procedure that will fit every situation.

[jimlongley]

Shoot until the threat is reduced.

One of the things I didn't like about IDPA when I was involved, was the low level emphasis on round counts - I used to like to run stages that required people to shoot until the threat was gone, which always got some people's hackles up because they didn't know how many shots they were going to need.

Although I hate the "Texas Star" and some of the other reactive targets because they demonstrate to me what a mediocre shooter I am, I still like them because they force you to shoot until you hit properly.

[Liberty]

Shoot until the threat is reduced.

One of the things I didn't like about IDPA when I was involved, was the low level emphasis on round counts - I used to like to run stages that required people to shoot until the threat was gone, which always got some people's hackles up because they didn't know how many shots they were going to need.

Although I hate the "Texas Star" and some of the other reactive targets because they demonstrate to me what a mediocre shooter I am, I still like them because they force you to shoot until you hit properly.

Grrr.. It forced me to shoot until I emptied my mag.

[seamusTX]

Grrr.. It forced me to shoot until I emptied my mag.

I had that reaction the first time I shot the Texas Star. I continued to pull the trigger with the slide locked back.

It was an extremely valuable lesson that I have not forgotten.

- Jim

[Liberty]

Grrr.. It forced me to shoot until I emptied my mag.

I had that reaction the first time I shot the Texas Star. I continued to pull the trigger with the slide locked back.

It was an extremely valuable lesson that I have not forgotten.

- Jim

I only tried it once and although it was humbling it was fun. Wait till next year! those plates won't stand a chance !!!

[srothstein]

Well, I have differing opinions on this, all based on the agreement that you shoot until the target is not a threat any longer.

I never did buy into the double tap automatically that law enforcement started teaching a few years back. I shoot and evaluate the results as I am shooting and continue to shoot as needed. That could be as little as one shot or as many as I have with me.

But, the new failure drills that we teach include two shots center of mass, one shot to the head, and then one shot to the hips. The presumption is that if the two COM shots do not stop, then the BG is wearing body armor. A head shot will work. The problem is that a head shot is a very difficult shot even under good circumstances, such as on the range. So we also go with a fourth shot, to the hips. A good hit to the hips will almost always drop the BG to the ground.

From personal experience, I will say that the hip shot is much more effective than the the COM shot for stopping the threat. I saw a person take a .357 through the lungs and continue to try to fight. The second shot hit him in the hips and knocked them out from under him, dropping him to the ground. Since that day, I have been a big fan of hip shots to stop threats.

[BrassMonkey]

Thanks Roth,
Maybe I was not being very clear. I am trying to determine what to practice until it is automatic. There has to be a one size fits all initial volley. I understand positioning, other people, situation and the like. I am just trying to figure out how many rounds I should be able to accurately put downrange in 1-2 seconds and what areas on the body I should concentrate on.

I understand reassesment, I understand every situation is different. I think the best I have heard so far is 2 or 3 (my choice) COM