Clarification Requested in Self-Defense Situation

[Talykashykun]

Alright, got some time to read all the responses and now I got a better idea on how to look at this situation. For more clarification, our corporate higher ups refuse to do anything about better security even after there were 3 robberies and a break in at other near by stores, so that's why I am in my "alert" status because I would rather be expecting something bad to happen rather than be unpleasantly surprised. Also I was just putting up a situation I needed clarification on, with reading the responses my memory has been jogged around to where I remember the best way to deescalate the situation. But anyway, back to the issue at hand, my company is too cheap to hire security, Houston police will rarely come to any location unless there is actually something going down (well at least in my part of town, they won't even come for traffic accidents unless it's blocking traffic) and the off duty officers are usually doing volunteer work with the neighborhood watch. But thanks for the feedback, you will probably hear back if everything goes off without a hitch.

[The Annoyed Man]

If I thought I was going somewhere dangerous enough to need my gun, I wouldn't go there.

This. If I anticipate having to use it, then I have urgent business elsewhere.

I carry a gun to cover the unpredictable situations. When the need to use it becomes predictable.....well......"only fools go where angels fear to tread."

As far as legally, you don't have to say anything. If you are attacked, or your customer is attacked, and neither you or your customer provoked the attack, including verbally, then you may lawfully draw your gun and defend yourself. You are under no legal obligation to provide a warning. Only you can be the judge of whether or not the moral situation calls for a warning. But be advised that if the attacker is armed with a firearm, you will have just given him a reason to shoot you first before you can do anything about it.

Remember that all the provisions under the law which allow you to A) carry a firearm, and B) use deadly force, are defenses to prosecution, not licenses to kill. If you shoot someone, even with good cause and fully within the law, you still face a high likelihood of going before a grand jury because although we believe in a presumption of innocence, the local DA likely does not, and he or she will want to find out if they have a reason to charge you with a crime. All of this gets very expensive for you......NOT your employer. Your employer is under no obligation to pay for your defense.

Therefore, it really doesn't matter what is legal or not on a purely practical level. What matters is, "can I financially afford to defend myself in the courtroom if I shoot someone, and if I can't, then is this particular situation worth the risk of having to do that?"

Personally, I'd call in sick.

[MasterOfNone]

Also with the SB321 thing, it also prohibits the employer from preventing you to store the firearm in a locker or similar place in the work area

Can you site this in the code? I have never seen this requirement.

[Talykashykun]

Also with the SB321 thing, it also prohibits the employer from preventing you to store the firearm in a locker or similar place in the work area

Can you site this in the code? I have never seen this requirement.

Ah you got me there, re-reading it from the DPS website I had misread a sentence laden with legal jargon, so ignore my comment about being able to store in a locker in the work place, it only applies to the parking lot. (post edited) but luckily my store owner is big on the right to bear arms and she happily lets me carry at work.

[bayouhazard]

Unless I'm working security, it's not my job to confront somebody walking off with the company's property.

I say let the folks who misplanned the release deal with the predicable consequences of their decisions.

[Keith B]

Also with the SB321 thing, it also prohibits the employer from preventing you to store the firearm in a locker or similar place in the work area

Can you site this in the code? I have never seen this requirement.

Ah you got me there, re-reading it from the DPS website I had misread a sentence laden with legal jargon, so ignore my comment about being able to store in a locker in the work place, it only applies to the parking lot. (post edited) but luckily my store owner is big on the right to bear arms and she happily lets me carry at work.

Just a word of caution; make sure they are not having you act in a security role with a CHL; that is a no-no. If you are just a regular employee and carrying, then that is fine.

My opinion is you might be wise to leave it off during any high stress times like this. The chances of something getting out of line are slim, and if they do, then it would be more a issue of upset folks vs. someone trying to gun you down or knife you. best bet is to practice conflict resolution skills and rapid dialing of 911 in these types of situations.

Additionally, to clarify what others have said, unless you feel your life or the life of another is in danger or there is imminent chance of serious bodily injury occurring, then you cannot threaten or use deadly force.

[Skiprr]

I think you've received some good advice about "it is a defense to prosecution if..." rather than "it is legal to...", and why nobody can provide a yes or no legal answer. But it's also difficult to offer even a "What would you do?" response...not just to your described scenario, but almost any time that question comes up. I know that's not specifically what you asked, but bear with me.

There are a lot of "What would you do?" sorts of scenarios posted on the board. Other than for very scope-limited comments, you don't find many of the more experienced members responding. The reason is that the totality of the situation has to be taken into account before a reasonable response can be offered, and that's extremely difficult to do in text on the Forum, even to a seemingly detailed after-action type report.

It's a 360-degree world out there in three dimensions and five senses, and situational totality is comprised of umpteen things: emotional state, environmental conditions (obstacles, cover, concealment, retreat routes, witnesses, visibility, footing, etc.), possibility of hidden weapons, number of assailants and positioning, physical characteristics of assailant(s), your own physical condition/capabilities, and many, many more. Your mind can do a pretty amazing job of quickly overlaying and analyzing most of these things but, as the saying goes, "Ya just had to be there."

I'm not saying what-if scenarios are useless. Far from it. I think they're important to think about ahead of time, and to practice. But the "would you draw" posts are almost impossible to respond to because it's inevitable that huge chunks of data will be missing.

But I'd go back to speedsix's comment about: if all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.

The thing that stood out immediately to me is that you're anticipating a large crowd inside a retail establishment. Presumably, even if you get an angry guy wanting to hit you over the head with a display case, the rest of the people in that large crowd are innocent shoppers. That simple situational fact would, IMHO, make a handgun a non-starter in all but the most extreme and unlikely conditions. If you have 65 innocents in an enclosed area in close proximity behind the bad guy, your world of viable options changes dramatically.

The best advice has already been given: if you expect violence, don't be there; have the store rethink the logistics of the deployment; hire professional security, etc. But if none of that will fly, my best suggestion would be to have already discussed this with peer employees, and figure out a way, on your own, that you can work the night in a buddy system. Try to stay positioned close together--but not too close--as much of the time as possible, and make sure each of you keep an eye on the situation happening around the other. There's a reason that bouncers in large clubs, for example, don't work solo: being calmed down by two guys standing apart, flanking you, is more convincing than a lone guy standing in front of you.

There are less-than-lethal options you might consider carrying, but they all have their downsides and there isn't room to go into them here. If you have a streaming OC spray and know how to use it, that's an option. I don't much like aerosol mist OC dispersant in any condition, but certainly not in a crowded retail establishment; and I'd have some Sudecon wipes on me, too. If you use the spray, you're gonna get it on some of those 65 innocent shoppers; a guaranteed story on the local ten o'clock news. You'd also need an OC post-application plan: what do you do once the bad guy is sprayed and is, hopefully, temporarily blinded, keyword being "temporarily."

If the store owner allows you to carry your EDC, more power to her. But in that over-crowded store environment, I can think of only a few most-extreme and most-unlikely situations that would ever have me even thinking about reaching for it. Absolutely nothing is going to go right if you have to unholster among a crowded throng of innocents milling around in a constrained environment.

[Kythas]

I may be showing my inner geekness, but there's only one product release in the near future where I can see a line out the door. The new iPhone4 is already out, so it's not that.

However, I doubt people will be getting in fights over Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3.

Though I have heard stories of customers, after having obtained their copy of a game, getting robbed of said game in the parking lot while going to their car, but this doesn't happen in the store so you won't have to worry about it.

[Keith B]

Maybe they're getting ready to release 'Tickle Me Elmo - 2.0'