Self defense scenario

[matriculated]

Also I think scenarios and what ifs are useful when they're realistic. Let's say the robber has your valuables and he's running away. He has what he wants from you and getting shot is probably not part of his plan. His best chance of not getting shot is to keep running. Many street criminals aren't book smart but they're street smart or they don't last long. His best bet is disappearing into the "nowhere" he appeared from and he probably knows that.

tl;dr He already has what wants. Why would he come back?

bayou, I made up this scenario exactly with realism in mind. We all like to think that we're condition yellow and we're always ready and prepared for what comes at us, but many times life gets in the way. That's why I made the person in the scenario condition white. I also picked parking lot as the setting, and that is indeed where many of these crimes go down. It was probably not the right thing to do pulling a gun on a guy who is running away, but under that kind of stress people often don't make rational decisions, so in the scenario the guy makes a questionable decision. And many of these criminals, especially the kind of lowlife that would stoop to a mugging, are often on drugs and ridiculously "macho," making it believable that he would get angry at very fact that somebody would dare threaten him.

[RPB]

Also I think scenarios and what ifs are useful when they're realistic. Let's say the robber has your valuables and he's running away. He has what he wants from you and getting shot is probably not part of his plan. His best chance of not getting shot is to keep running. Many street criminals aren't book smart but they're street smart or they don't last long. His best bet is disappearing into the "nowhere" he appeared from and he probably knows that.

tl;dr He already has what wants. Why would he come back?

I suppose if one laughed loudly and yelled "The idiot got my wallet, but forgot to get my $5,000 Rolex" he might turn and face you again.
Not recommending it ... just sayin'

[Lambda Force]

Would you get into trouble with the game warden for hunting over bait?

[MoJo]

The problem with "what if" scenarios is they are just that "what if." The chances of something happening just like what we cook up in the kitchen of our imaginations is very remote at best.

Let's just say the BG would have gotten away with your wallet and you would have had to be making some phone calls to cancel your credit cards.

[C-dub]

What I've learned from this forum and been reminded of in my renewal course taken yesterday is that if you shoot someone you are going to be in trouble. How much trouble is only a matter of whether or not you were justified and whether or not a DA wants to charge you and if a Grand Jury "no bills" you or not. Even if you are "no billed" it will cost several thousand dollars, but you will be alive.

If you do not shoot someone and were justified and are able to convince the police and a DA of what happened then you will likely only be out whatever was in your wallet.

[JP171]

Hey guys, great CHL forum. I see lots of good advice and level-headed analysis, so I have a hypothetical self-defense scenario that I would be interested in seeing some comments on.

Let's say I'm on my way to my car in some parking lot. Not a lot of other cars, no other people. For whatever reason (let's say I've had a long and stressful day), I'm in condition white and don't notice this guy coming up to me until he has his knife at my side and is telling me to hand over my wallet "or else" (I imagine the criminal would use more colorful language). I hand over my wallet without him slicing me up, he turns around and starts running in the opposite direction. At this point I pull out my gun, point it at the guy's back, and yell: "Drop my wallet or you're dead." Now, in my mind, I have no intention of really shooting this guy in the back over my wallet. But he just mugged me, and I'm just making an attempt at retrieving my property. If he keeps running, I'll reholster my gun and call the cops. If he drops my wallet and keeps running, even better. But, he does neither of those, and instead turns around, figures the gun's either not real or I'm bluffing about shooting him, and comes at me. This guy is now coming at me and I know he is armed with a knife and willing to cut me, in light of the mugging that took place a few seconds prior. I put a couple of rounds in his chest in self-defense. He goes down, I call the police.

Am I in the right? Did I break the law by pulling my gun even though the guy was running away at that point, and even though I wasn't going to shoot him in the back? How's the police going to feel about this if I explain it to them word for word as I did above?

edited for a misspell

you would be legal in all aspects, it is clear to me that you are allowed to use force and deadly force to recover your property if you do it immediatly after the robbery occured weather he is running or not, it says that in the law, when he turned and came toward you running or not he was again a deadly threat and therefore again its a good shooting. the law also states that production of a weapon is NOT deadly force if your intent is to cause the perp to believe that you will use deadly force, then the situation changes when he turns and comes at you too many people want to let it go, not me sorry, I WILL RECOVER MY PROPERTY!!!!! I hate theives with a singular passion. there have been precedents set already. I remember but don't know exactly when it occured but a guy had his vehicle stolen by a repo truck(guy picked up truck of same make model and color as the repo but wrong tags) the lawful owner gave chase and shot the repo driver, he was able to prove he owned the truck and it went to the grand jury without charges.

[matriculated]

you would be legal in all aspects, it is clear to me that you are allowed to use force and deadly force to recover your property if you do it immediatly after the robbery occured weather he is running or not, it says that in the law,

Does it really say that in the law? So, I would not be facing any charges, or if I did, they'd be thrown out in light of the law? Can anybody point out where it says this in the law?

[JP171]

here ya go

PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

PC §9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.


so yea the law does infact say that

[Beiruty]

One very important word in the qouted law:"during night time" applies only for theft.

[74novaman]

The time to shoot was when he was approaching the first time, knife in hand. Your life is in danger.

Unless you're on school grounds, in which you should count on the magical protections school grounds provide, right gdanaher?

[jmra]

Our instructor used a video of an actual event where a BG entered a store and pulled a gun on the person behind the cash register. As the gun is being pulled, the instructor stopped the video and asked if we thought use of deadly force was justified. We all said yes. He agreed. The video resumed. As the BG pulls the gun it slips from his hand and falls on the counter. The employee picks up the gun, video stops. Instructor then asks if deadly force is justified. Half the class says yes the other half says no. Instructor says yes. Video resumes. BG turns and runs out the door. As he is opening the door video stops. Same question. All students say no, instructor says yes. Video continues. BG is running down street, you guessed it, instructor says yes.

According to the law, even while fleeing the BG was still in the the process of committing the same crime as he was when he first pulled the gun. Deadly force is justified during the act of the crime.

According to our instructor the video was reviewed by the powers that be and that use of deadly force was confirmed as justified at each point of stoppage in the video.

Assuming the BG is no longer a threat is to assume that he is no longer armed and dangerous. The law, as written, does not require you to make this assumption.

I am not sure that I could bring myself to shoot the BG after he left the store but the fact of the matter is, under the law, he is still considered a threat while fleeing.

[JP171]

One very important word in the qouted law:"during night time" applies only for theft.

looks like 3 words to me, and when you rob someone at knife or gun point that is theft but not as the law sees it, in that instance theft would be stealing something out of a yard or open area. not really sure if robbing someone at knifepoint falls under robbery or aggrivated robery. Robbery has no night time requirement

If I have misinterperated your statement I appologize

[C-dub]

One very important word in the qouted law:"during night time" applies only for theft.

looks like 3 words to me, and when you rob someone at knife or gun point that is theft but not as the law sees it, in that instance theft would be stealing something out of a yard or open area. not really sure if robbing someone at knifepoint falls under robbery or aggrivated robery. Robbery has no night time requirement

If I have misinterperated your statement I appologize

I think the addition of a weapon elevates it to aggravated.

[jocat54]

I would probably be shaking so bad I couldn't draw--but if I could I would, at the point of the BG leaving I really don't know what his intentions are so I if I could the gun would be in my hand. Don't think I would shoot him in the back while fleeing (but a possibility)if he turned and started back I know I would. I believe the law would be in my favor. Still would be a big hassle but I would be alive.

[speedsix]

...he wasn't mugging you, he was committing an aggravated robbery...when he turned to run away, he was still committing aggravated robbery(the escape with the property part)...according to the Deadly Force section of the Penal Code, deadly force is justified by the law...when he turned and came back at you, whether or not you saw the knife that he used in the initiation of the robbery...you are even more reasonable in believing that your life is in danger, and, since he still has your wallet, he is still in commission of the aggravated robbery...and deadly force is still justified...nighttime has no bearing on the episode...neither does defense of property...the applicable PC is 9:31 and9:32...bringing 9:42 into the mix is not necessary nor does it give you an advantage...